TPGK, get c'rd on the turn

[Basil]

I smell 77 from UTG.
Wouldn't he have raised 77 preflop though?

Anyways, I think you can fold river unimproved. I'd probably call down though, being a fish and all.

[Unguarded]

[ QUOTE ]
what hands do you think we should have to attempt this? decent SD value? a good draw? air?

[/ QUOTE ]

In no-limit, this move is called The Squeeze Play. You raise in a protected pot, and the players stuck in between say "damn, I wasn't even sure I was ahead of the bettor/caller... now I must really be screwed!" and hopefully fold a better hand. It would take some really tight players with some really half-assed hands for it to be profitable with less than a gutshot/flush draw I would imagine (just guessing, could be wrong... prolly worth some thought).

Another time it might be good is when you feel like you have one of the players beaten, but not the other, and the player you feel is in the lead is tight and can make tough folds.

In THFAP, they discuss making this play with air on the river under ideal conditions. Good luck finding these conditions in online play! lol



[ QUOTE ]
also, isnt this a move to be aware of mostly for higher limits than 1/2 ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Harv made the move in a 5/10 game. I chose to post the fake hand at 1/2 just because it's what I play and I needed to disguise the hand. I don't see why limits should matter much. As long as the players are tight and can make tough folds, it's worth at least a thought. I see what you're saying though... if you table select decently, you should hardly ever be in a 3-handed pot with 2 TAGs at the lower limits.

[restless]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why limits should matter much. As long as the players are tight and can make tough folds, it's worth at least a thought. I see what you're saying though... if you table select decently, you should hardly ever be in a 3-handed pot with 2 TAGs at the lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think that at lower limits TAG doesn't always = good player. I have TAG stats but certainly don't consider myself more than a step above beginner. TAG's come both good and bad. Some fold too much and others will call down because they just HAVE to see what cracked their good preflop hand this time. Id assume this is more prevalent at 1/2 than 5/10.

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a sure call-down without more of a read. Also, I think your table image is important here. If you've seen UTG try to make a move like this before, or if you've been overly aggressive recently, a re-raise might be in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange logic...

[Unguarded]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think that at lower limits TAG doesn't always = good player. I have TAG stats but certainly don't consider myself more than a step above beginner. TAG's come both good and bad. Some fold too much and others will call down because they just HAVE to see what cracked their good preflop hand this time. Id assume this is more prevalent at 1/2 than 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true, which is why you need a good read on your opponent. In marginal situations, a TAG read just isn't good enough... it's gotta be a TAG who you know can make tough folds. In Harv's post, his draw was so strong that he risked very little by making his play (He was 2.1:1 against improving on the river), so it was probably a good move despite his lack of strong reads.

A realistic case where it may be a good move at 1/2 and lower is a 3-handed pot with a TAG and a maniac, and the maniac is first to act. Maybe the board shows an ace or a king on the turn (not too drawy), and you suspect this is the TAG's holding (preferably a weak A or K). As usual, you doubt the maniac has much and you hold something like QQ or JJ. Now the play is especially effective since the maniac will often 3-bet. If the TAG calls the 3-bet, you can muck (you're owned) and you spent the same amount of money as you would have for a calldown. If the maniac calls and the TAG calls, you can hopefully just check behind on the river.

I am in no way an expert on this play... I have only taken an interest in it over the last week or so. I have vague memories of reading about it in THFAP and TTOP, and my reaction at the time was "This will almost never work in the games I play in!"