A question of ethics (slightly OT) - Page 2

Jeff76 · #11 09-08-2006, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When he calls (w/ 7s full) and I show, he's spitting mad. I calmly tell him (and am actually backed up by 2 other players) that I told him the literal truth. When I posted this at another site, the reaction ranged from "you're a jerk" to "he had no business asking; feel free to lie outright."

[/ QUOTE ]What did he expect you to do? Tell him your hand? He's mad because he lost and he wants to blame you for it. It's what humans do to soften large dissapointments.

But don't try to justify it to him. It is not necessary and it doesn't make you look good- not that you looking good to him is particualrly important anyway. But if what you are trying to achive is some logical explanation to abate an emotional response, you are doomed to failure. In fact, now you're just giving him a reasonable target. If you did anything that was jerk-like, it was after the hand when you tried to demonstrate how you tricked him by fancy wordplay and a technicality.

Who cares how you interpret the question? You are free to answer how you like (unless the rules where you are playing state that you are not aloud to tell an opponent your hand, which you did not do). Your goal is to get his chips in the middle, and that's what you did. Saying "no" to a straightfoward question about your hand is not angle shooting. If you thought it would get his chips in the middle, then it was a good poker play- nothing more, nothing less.

But seriously, get over the "lying about your cards" thing. It's a game, not a moral issue. Lying is not in my nature- just ask my wife. She gets so frustrated when I can't back up her stories of why we're late to family functions! But in poker I have no problem answering "72" when someone asks me what I have, or answering "yup" when asked if I have a set when I'm bluffing after villan folds. It's a strategic part of the game and not a moral issue at all.

My answer to that question would proably be "do I need one?"

Baud Beat · #12 09-08-2006, 06:12 PM

There is no crying in Baseball and no lying in Poker. You can not lie in a game where the very nature of the rules require that you mislead your opponents. Therefore anything you "represent" in Poker is fair game. Whether asked or not.

However, in most other aspects of your life, when you "represent" the truth, you should be in fact telling it to the best of your understanding.

In other words, if asked a question, and you believe you fully understand the intent behind the question, you should answer it to the best of your knowledge with regard to that intent.

Or simply put, stop lying!

Duck Rabbit · #13 09-08-2006, 06:16 PM

bcubed, do you go to Penn State? we just had the same no food policy made this year.

Jeff76 · #14 09-08-2006, 06:16 PM

Regarding the coffee/water thing, if you get busted it doesn't mater how you intepret the rules. You might make a moral stand on what YOU think is right, but don't use fancy wordplay and a technicality to justify your actions. I'm certain you KNOW they will bust you for coffee, regardless of your spillproof mug and deep unterstanding of the real motivations behind the new rule.

If you get caught, you will pay the consequences. If it is worth it to you and you think your cause is just, then I guess you have your answer. But if/when you get caught, don't act suprised or try to justify yourself by a word technicality, because it won't work and no one will really care. If youre real issue is that you are attempting to fulfill the "spirit of the rule" by using a spillproof mug, well that's worth arguing, and while I'm certain you'll get nowhere, you can at least feel like you've taken a moral stand for something you believe in. But seriously, if you think you can justify it because Coffee is 90% water, you KNOW that's not what they meant so don't even go there.

Or to answer your real question, yes, misreprenting the truth is lying, even if you are telling a parital truth. In fact, the best lies are cloaked in half-truths.

MatusowIsBald · #15 09-08-2006, 06:20 PM

Holy crap! Did I read that right?! You can only bring in water to class? That's crazy. When I was in college (about 6 years ago) you could not only drink whatever you wanted but you could eat pretty much whatever you wanted as well (within reason). This wouldn't surprise me so much in a high school setting, but college?! Wow.

bcubed72 · #16 09-08-2006, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bcubed, do you go to Penn State? we just had the same no food policy made this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guilty as charged! Seriously, in another section of the 2+2 boards (I inquired as to how to locate a game) I said I was located "4-5 hours west of AC in an anonymous college town." NOONE picked up on it, or at least bothered to mention it.

The thing that really pissed me off re: the ban was the buisiness about giving away bottled water in exchange for signatures--like they can buy us off. Got bent out of shape a bit and ranted (letter to Collegian) where I basically said that they should do what the library does--approve any liquid (beer might be pushing it [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) in a spill-proof container. Might be in a bit of trouble 'cause I basically said I'm gonna defy the ban.

Yoshi · #17 09-08-2006, 08:36 PM

Okay, first of all, when you are intentionally deceiving someone, then you are lying. Regaurdless of how you word it. PERIOD. However, poker is a highly physocological game, and lying is part of the game. You need to be doing whatever it takes to get as many chips in the pot as you can (with in the rules) when your holding a monster. If this means lying, then you lie. If you arent comfortable doing this then you need to quit poker and take up Go Fish or Uno or something. Thats poker. Outside of poker, no, you shouldnt lie.

Second of all, why are you making such a big deal out of taking coffee to class??????? If your gonna do it, then fine, do it. It doesnt sound like its that big of a deal. And like what others have already said, when you get caught then you must face the consequences because you KNEW that your "flavored water" was not allowed. Sounds to me like your just trying to find a way to justify it to yourself and not to whoever might ask you whats in the cup.

nuts · #18 09-09-2006, 06:45 AM

You lie everytime you slowplay a hand or bluff. If you're not willing to do these things you won't get very far.

Why should a verbal lie be any worse than an unspoken one?

montauk · #19 09-09-2006, 09:05 AM

Who would be stupid enough to listen exclusively to the words of the answer. The reason for asking isnt to hear your answer its to make you talk in order to give away the real answer.

I would lie if it benefits me in poker. Next time you can probably tell the truth and he would have no idea whether it is true or not, you put him on tilt, plus it stops him from asking questions that may force you to give away extra info from a tell.

Well played.

AlanBostick · #20 09-09-2006, 11:20 AM

Lying about your hand is part of the game. Anyone who asks what I have and believes my answer is a fool.

One thing that a certain kind of good player does in live games is ask something like "You don't have a king, do you?" and look for tells, putting much less weight on whatever it is that you happen to say in response.

As far as the school thing goes, it's a dumb rule. If you are concerned about ethics, you can abide by the rule and do something like take No-Doz or chew on caffeinated mints while drinking water. Civil disobedience is also an ethical option.