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#12
08-10-2006, 06:37 AM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think most people would agree being alive and depressed beats not existing at all. [/ QUOTE ] well the entire crux of our argument was that this person doesn't see it that way. so telling him that's what most people think doesn't do any god because that's not what he thinks. [/ QUOTE ] people that are depressed have experienced joy and happiness in their life previously. depressed people probably dont commit suicide because they still have a certain level of hope, that exists in all human beings. but there probably is a point where all hope is gone, and even then most people are probably too passive to kill themselves. 
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#13
08-10-2006, 06:46 AM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
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I'm not a doctor, but I can see three differences from your thoughts. 1. Some people enjoy being depresed. [/ QUOTE ] People get to control others/get attentention/etc through presenting as depressed. Plus in cases such as the OP points out this person would certainly qualify for disability so they get a free check and almost free apartment (section 8 subsidy) for life and do not have to do anything other than that which they are already doing. There are many benefits of being depressed and miserable. Most choose to stay alive and collect these benefits rather than ending their lives (it is quite easy to do so if one really want to). So the current evidence suggests that people choose life and the benefits tied to their 'depression' as the better option.
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#14
08-10-2006, 10:09 AM
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This thread SUCKS
I really cant believe what I'm reading here. Why do you all feel qualified to discuss about this? Would you talk the same way about some physical or mathematical concepts you dont know anything about? Just because you are human beings with brains, emotions and thoughts doesnt mean you know anything about Psychology. It's a very hard, complex and empirical science, which in Europe only the top 5% are able to study, and it takes 10 years +++ until you are theoretically allowed to treat anyone.
I will ignore some of the responses, which are by the way among the most stupid things I have ever read, and will try to answer OP's question, which is not that unreasonable. Keep in mind that I'm not a doctor and not yet qualified to give a real answer. However I will study Psychology + Medicine starting at October, have worked in a Psychiatric Clinic and am currently learning for some admission tests, so I know more than the general population about these topics. One problem with the question though is, that "depression" is not a real specific medical term, there are many many different ways a person can be depressed. To simplify this question, let's assume the patient is: a) "endogene depressive": This means that his depression doesnt seem to come from "external" reasons. Like if your parents die, your girlfriend leaves you and you lose your job, it would be a totally normal psychological reaction to feel "sad" or "down". From this stage it's quite easy to develop a depression, but this would have to treated slightly differently than an "endogene depression". b) The reasons for his depression are psychological and not physiological. There are some very heavy depressions associated with chemical imbalances in the brain involving neurotransmitters, in this case nothing a doctor could say to a patient will change him feeling depressive, that's where medicamentation is needed. Thats one of the reasons why Medicine + Psychology are two entirely different subjects. c) Not psychotic and not therapy-unable, meaning he trusts his Therapist and doesnt think his attempts to cure him are part of some giant conspiracy against them. d) Rather "thinking" about suicide than already having made plans for it. It's really a different situation for the therapist, if the patient hasn't thought out how to kill himself, or if he already has some pills/bridges/weapons he plans to use. --> Even now there are many important variables for the proper treating left, and of course there are many different schools of Psychotherapy with many different methods of treating, but I will ignore that, it makes stuff too complicated for outsiders. To answer your question, it's rather unlikely a Psychotherapist could come up with a "single good, logical, reason". On the one hand you have to see that highly depressive persons do not have their normal cognitive abilities. Their lines of thinking always touch the same topics and they are not necessarily open to new ideas, because they are feeling deep mental fatigue. Often they are not getting enough good REM sleep, which can easily mean a further retardation of their mental abilities. Much more important, this "single, good, logical" reason for living doesn't really exist. In a higher sense you are asking for the meaning/sense of live, which cant be found in the Psychology books. Like I said I'm not a doctor (yet), but I suppose the treatment would be along the lines of day-to-day program. Helping the patient make plans, what to do the next week and sticking to it. The ""well, I can either go through a bunch of work and hopefully, maybe, some day in the future" plan isnt very appalling for a depressive person. So you would rather move them from week to week, breaking their normal cycles. And make clear to them that they are not alone, in a sense that their are many depressive people who are fighting with the same problems, and that getting out of it is much easier than they think, and that they are having control over their life. Like I said I’m not qualified to answer this. You have to keep in mind that Psychology often isn’t as clear cut as some fields of Medicine like surgery, you have to improvise on the spot a lot more often.
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#15
08-10-2006, 10:21 AM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
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People get to control others/get attentention/etc through presenting as depressed. Plus in cases such as the OP points out this person would certainly qualify for disability so they get a free check and almost free apartment (section 8 subsidy) for life and do not have to do anything other than that which they are already doing. There are many benefits of being depressed and miserable. Most choose to stay alive and collect these benefits rather than ending their lives (it is quite easy to do so if one really want to). So the current evidence suggests that people choose life and the benefits tied to their 'depression' as the better option. [/ QUOTE ] Wow you really got a point, maybe AIDS or cancer isn't that bad as well? After all, you get attention, dont need to work anymore, hooray. Maybe you could offer me a scientifical source for your "current evidence"?
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#16
08-10-2006, 10:41 AM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
This is the best article on suicide ever written. [censored] amazing:
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/suicide.html
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#17
08-10-2006, 10:44 AM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm not a doctor, but I can see three differences from your thoughts. 1. Some people enjoy being depresed. [/ QUOTE ] People get to control others/get attentention/etc through presenting as depressed. Plus in cases such as the OP points out this person would certainly qualify for disability so they get a free check and almost free apartment (section 8 subsidy) for life and do not have to do anything other than that which they are already doing. There are many benefits of being depressed and miserable. Most choose to stay alive and collect these benefits rather than ending their lives (it is quite easy to do so if one really want to). So the current evidence suggests that people choose life and the benefits tied to their 'depression' as the better option. [/ QUOTE ] Where can I sign up for this?
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#18
08-10-2006, 12:11 PM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm not a doctor, but I can see three differences from your thoughts. 1. Some people enjoy being depresed. [/ QUOTE ] People get to control others/get attentention/etc through presenting as depressed. Plus in cases such as the OP points out this person would certainly qualify for disability so they get a free check and almost free apartment (section 8 subsidy) for life and do not have to do anything other than that which they are already doing. There are many benefits of being depressed and miserable. Most choose to stay alive and collect these benefits rather than ending their lives (it is quite easy to do so if one really want to). So the current evidence suggests that people choose life and the benefits tied to their 'depression' as the better option. [/ QUOTE ] Where can I sign up for this? [/ QUOTE ] Everything is relative. Normal people or people with average to promising futures would not find it worthwhile, obviously. But if you really wanted it just start acting crazy at work and in your home life. Get into mental hospitals several times of the next couple of years and present as crazy (do a little research if you know nothing about it). You will need to 'loose' your job and 'not be able to work'. After a year or so of 'trying' to work, go apply for social security disability. It will help if you 'loose' your house/apartment and go live in a homeless shelter. The social workers at the homeless shelter can 'help you' apply for social security and section 8. You will get priority 1 status for section 8 since you are homeless. Make sure not to kill yourself or you will not collect. If you need any more tips pm me.
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#19
08-10-2006, 12:17 PM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] People get to control others/get attentention/etc through presenting as depressed. Plus in cases such as the OP points out this person would certainly qualify for disability so they get a free check and almost free apartment (section 8 subsidy) for life and do not have to do anything other than that which they are already doing. There are many benefits of being depressed and miserable. Most choose to stay alive and collect these benefits rather than ending their lives (it is quite easy to do so if one really want to). So the current evidence suggests that people choose life and the benefits tied to their 'depression' as the better option. [/ QUOTE ] Wow you really got a point, maybe AIDS or cancer isn't that bad as well? After all, you get attention, dont need to work anymore, hooray. Maybe you could offer me a scientifical source for your "current evidence"? [/ QUOTE ] Where do you see me suggest it is not that bad? Just because something is very undesirable to the general public does not mean that there are not 'benefits'. Everything is relative. If those 'benefits' were taken away, would the people recieving them present as neutral or be upset/resist? If they resist I suggest they are loosing something of value and recognize it as such. It would also stand to reason that some percentage of those people would go ahead and kill themselves. I am not suggesting people with stable lives would prefer a life of misery with some benefits that they already get in significantly greater quantities and take for granted without presenting as miserable. What do you know about mental illness anyway?
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#20
08-10-2006, 01:34 PM
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Re: enjoyment depression suicide and logic
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but basically we couldn't come up with a single good, logical, reason why a miserable, depressed person shouldnt go ahead and commit suicide. I know some real doctors post here so maybe they could fill me in on what they would say to a patient who brought this line of reasoning? [/ QUOTE ] I am not a doctor, but... Do not let the patient control the frame. (i.e. killing myself is a reasonable option for reasons xyz, lets discuss it doctor) It would most likely be a manipulative tactic (for a chronic patient, someone who has been in treatment for a while...someone who really wants to and is determinded to do it does it they do not debate it, people who seek to debate it do not want to do it they want attention.. as in conversation, so give them conversation but control the content of hte conversation yourself) as people who are committed to killing themselves just do it. You set the frame and control the frame (do not debate reasons to kill or not kill- if they want to do it they will do it regardless of what you say and if they don't want to do it they will dance around your reasons all day long, getting negative attention the whole time). It is not hard to kill oneself. Assuming they are engaged in treatment voluntarilly they are demonstrating a desire to not kill themselves. Actions speak louder than words. Wake up...go to psychiatrist or go to bridge and jump?
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