enjoyment depression suicide and logic

mason55 · #1 08-08-2006, 06:45 AM

so I was talking to a friend about a bunch of different things today and we started talking about this.

take someone who is depressed. they are basically receiving little to no enjoyment out of their life, correct? basically they're unhappy all the time. now, theres basically two roads they can take. the first road is for them to end their life and the second is for them to take some measures to increase their enjoyment of life (either through therapy or medication).

now, this person is sitting there, probably having been depressed for quite some time. so they're looking at thier two options and saying "well, I can either go through a bunch of work and hopefully, maybe, some day in the future, ill be happy. or I can just end things now." and neither of us could really think of an argument for this person that made sense for them to stick around. we had the standard "people love you" but that seems pretty selfish if the person is miserable.

now, neither of us have experience with serious depression so our line of thinking might be off here. but basically we couldn't come up with a single good, logical, reason why a miserable, depressed person shouldnt go ahead and commit suicide.

I know some real doctors post here so maybe they could fill me in on what they would say to a patient who brought this line of reasoning?

(if this is more suited for smp please move there, I don't post or read here regularly and don't know what goes here besides "how do I tell my parents I play poker for money")

JoaoPinto · #2 08-08-2006, 08:25 AM

now, neither of us have experience with serious depression so our line of thinking might be off here. but basically we couldn't come up with a single good, logical, reason why a miserable, depressed person shouldnt go ahead and commit suicide.

One good reason is that it would cause others emotional pain if they had any family and friends. If they don't then the bag of helium it is!

Mike · #3 08-08-2006, 08:29 AM

I'm not a doctor, but I can see three differences from your thoughts. 1. Some people enjoy being depresed. 2. Even though they are depressed now, things usually change within a year or so, although for some people maybe never of course. 3. I think most people would agree being alive and depressed beats not existing at all. Of course these are just my off the cuff thoughts.

Quanah Parker · #4 08-08-2006, 09:52 AM

I think the "sage of our ages", Mr. David Lee Roth addressed these concerns nicley in his masterpiece album 1984.

Say there's a guy on a tall building threatening to jump to his death. There's going to be a few in the crowd thinking:
Go ahead and jump.

Everything neccesary for a happy, whole, and well rounded life is contained in secret and not-so-secret messages provided by the wise Mr. Roth.

Poker Plan · #5 08-08-2006, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think most people would agree being alive and depressed beats not existing at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way to make that comparison.

Ian

Mike · #6 08-08-2006, 11:51 AM

Unless you consider if that was true this discussion would not be taking place?

jb9 · #7 08-08-2006, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
theres basically two roads they can take. the first road is for them to end their life and the second is for them to take some measures to increase their enjoyment of life (either through therapy or medication).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extreme oversimplification. Depression comes in many varieties, and more often than not is caused by an outside influence (financial, social, or personal) that could be changed or perhaps will change on its own.

If the decision truly is death, lifelong misery, or therapy/medication then any logical assessment will reveal that therapy/medication should be tried first as death or lifelong misery will still be open options should therapy/medication fail.

I have known several people (myself included) who have been "depressed" at different moments in their lives for various reasons (usually some combination of horrible job/financial problems and family/love life gone to hell). Never did it seem remotely logical to think "Jane should kill herself since her job sucks and her husband cheated on her".

RolloRolf · #8 08-08-2006, 08:05 PM

You know most people commit suicide when ever they're on their way out of depression. During the depression people do not have the energi to commit suicide. Then during the healing process they get rejuvinated, though they're still depressed. Then with the added energi, they kill themselves.

Other times (and often that is) people doesn't really want to die, they want to let the world know they're unhappy. A scream of help..

As we do not know how it is to be dead, we cannot assume it's better than being depressed. We do know however that being happy is better than being depressed, and therefore people should seek happiness rather than death. Very logical and simplified answer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mason55 · #9 08-08-2006, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think most people would agree being alive and depressed beats not existing at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

well the entire crux of our argument was that this person doesn't see it that way. so telling him that's what most people think doesn't do any god because that's not what he thinks.

Frosthawk · #10 08-09-2006, 02:48 AM

I have suffered with depression for most of my life. I still go through some pretty deep phases at least 3 or 4 times a year. I have considered suicide on several occasions. For me it is usually caused by a feeling of ineffectiveness (ie the inability to either change some part of my life or the the inability to master something I have set out to learn). I fight it in several different ways. The first level of defense for me is that I just try to tell myself that life changes and that I should just let it run its course.If that isnt working then I try to convince myself that death will come soon enough and that there must be some reason to live even if that reason is nothing more than curiousity. If I sink even farther than I start thinking that I need help and usually call a very good friend of mine. We never talk about my depression but instead he has a way of getting me involved in some sort of conversation or debate about something that redirescts my attention in a way that is more positive and hopeful. My last line of defense is nothing more than a combination of unsurity and fear about what happens after death. I have never gone beyond that point. If I even remotely thought that I had to work hard to get over it it would probably drive me even deeper so I never think on those terms. Anyway, this is my process and I am sure there are a hundred different techniques that others use.