4/180: To isolate, or not to isolate?

[AceLuby]

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I call.

If BB calls he's putting in 1/4 of his stack, so if he's in the pot he'll probably push anyway, and that means you're dominated for sure.

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If you call and BB pushes, call or fold?

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Fold, they are stating that they can beat you w/ the AI re-raise.

[UVaHoo]

We know that MP is desparate, but does MP know that? From what I've seen at the $4/180's and other low buy-in MTT's, a lot of people don't adjust their play. It seems like every time I make a loose-ish big stack call against a stack that should be pushing almost anything when folded to them, they end up flipping over a premium hand.

It's my general observation that without a read of a specific player at a $4/180, they still only raise their premium hands, not adjusting to the situation (I have 6.5 big blinds, why push J9o?). I would certainly think about folding if I thought this might be the case.

Additionally, with the antes about to kick in, I find that people at the $4's don't adjust their play to the increased pot sized, allowing for lower risk, higher reward stealing.

I might find a fold unless I had a read that the player was pushing any 2.

[seke2]

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I call.

If BB calls he's putting in 1/4 of his stack, so if he's in the pot he'll probably push anyway, and that means you're dominated for sure.

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If you call and BB pushes, call or fold?

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Fold, they are stating that they can beat you w/ the AI re-raise.

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Or squeezing you out for some juicy dead money. This being a 4/180, I probably would fold and not give them credit for thinking that far, but I'd push a decently wide range from the BB if I thought the SB's call was weak, since the shortie's range is really wide here, and SB could be calling with almost any 2 here if he likes to gamble.

[AceLuby]

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I call.

If BB calls he's putting in 1/4 of his stack, so if he's in the pot he'll probably push anyway, and that means you're dominated for sure.

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If you call and BB pushes, call or fold?

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Fold, they are stating that they can beat you w/ the AI re-raise.

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Or squeezing you out for some juicy dead money. This being a 4/180, I probably would fold and not give them credit for thinking that far, but I'd push a decently wide range from the BB if I thought the SB's call was weak, since the shortie's range is really wide here, and SB could be calling with almost any 2 here if he likes to gamble.

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A squeeze in the 4/180's is almost unheard of, which is why I chose this line. I would seriously doubt BB to come along unless they had a premium hand.

[seke2]

Bump. I think a lot of people missed this because I posted it Friday afternoon, and I'm rather curious to see what more people think since we've had a lot of different opinions expressed so far.

[Quanah Parker]

Fold.
The chips you could lose are worth more than the chips you could win here.

[dfbuzzbeater]

I'm shoving here. Put BB to the decision...you might get him to fold a lot of hands that beat you that he may otherwise call with or push with. Specifically, 22-TT, AJ, maybe even AQ. The guy shoved for 5.5 BBs in late position...I'm putting him on a wide range; one we're ahead of, i.e. any ace, K9+, 22+, QJ, Q10, J10.

[Nez477]

Seke, I hate you for this thread. I've thought about it a lot and I still don't really have a very educational answer.

I guess (hope) there is some kind of reason why isolating is better than calling, but we are obviously killed if BB does call.....

I'd push here without thinking twice, but that's the problem, I don't think twice (or even once) in this situation. I think "I want to call him, but isolating is always better than calling...."

Do we smooth call with AA, KK here?

I don't know. I need help making an argument for either side. And btw, folding is not really even in my thought process here. Shorty has 7 BB's, he's desperate, we are ahead of his range, enough said.

If we call and BB pushes, we pretty much have to call that too with the size of the pot and such anyway right?

Plus, villian is going to be looser against our call and tighter against a push. So that means that we should push holdings like A-T and just call with AA, KK and the like, yes?

I'm saying tons of random things, but those are my random thoughts about this situation.

Brad

[seke2]

Brad,

I'm right with you. I believe isolating > calling because I believe I am calling even if I call and the BB pushes due to the pot odds and the fact that he could be running a squeeze.

Fundamentally, I believe the decision to isolate or not in this hand hinges on deciding BEFORE you do anything as to whether or not you would call if you called and BB pushed.

If you would call a BB push, then you should isolate. This is to force him to fold a couple of hands he might push with if you called, like 66-99, AJ. And if he has a big hand I have already decided to pay him off anyway, I don't feel that bad when he wakes up with a hand.

If I you would fold when BB pushed, then I believe calling is better. This way, you minimize the risk of losing the extra chips, and since it's a 5xBB open anyway, he probably isn't calling without a halfway decent hand. Additonally, since it would be a dry sidepot if he called, BB will likely not bet at the pot without a legitimate hand, so you have a fair chance of at least seeing the entire board if you want to.

So to me, the decision to isolate has to do completely with a preemptive decision regarding what you would do if BB did push over your call, and then making your decision to push or call based on that decision.

[AceLuby]

I think a large majority of this also lies w/ what range is the BB pushing with and what is he calling with. If you think that a call will induce a push from BB (shown agg earlier) then you have to push/fold. Otherwise, I think I like the prospect of inviting BB along, get a bigger pot going, and team up against the shorty, hopefully in your favor.

Given your read I change my mind and isolate. You really don't want him pushing you off the best hand here w/ a call.