NL50: QQ on KKx flop - Page 2

KingKory · #11 08-02-2006, 04:54 PM

TAG = Tight-Aggressive. He doesn't play many hands, and when he does, he plays them hard.

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Something I've been wondering: Is reraising him back preflop ever a good idea here? This way you can basically represent a plethora of great hands on the flop and a TAG will usually give you the respect due if you havent had a history of betting him out of a lot of pots.

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I'm also wondering this, and I'm surprised you're the only one to mention it so far.

By flat-calling pre-flop, are we not reducing ourselves to set-hunting? I'm having trouble seeing the value of just calling PF; I'd rather fold/push. If we're not feeling confident on a pair board like this, what's the point of us being in the hand in the first place?

m33bl · #12 08-02-2006, 05:05 PM

Maybe this is just my inexperience, but shouldn't you have raised initially pre-flop? I always thought QQ was a little vulnerable to slow play... I'm assuming of course, that the blinds were 1/2, and your initial play was a call. If I'm wrong, my apologies.
Also, I play live in LA, and the rake at the casinos is a flat four dollars, so if you don't get money in pre-flop, there's really no pot to play for... was this online?
Again, I'm still learning, so if I say anything stupid, please tell me... I could use the advice.

BlackjackAJ · #13 08-02-2006, 05:10 PM

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I'd rather fold/push.

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Ok, lets look at this villain's range.

If he's tag he could conceivably have TT, JJ, KK, AA, or AK (Maybe a weird AQs or KQs and MAYBE a small pair). This is really read dependent. Have you been button raising constantly the past 5 or so orbits? Has he ever defended or played back light?

In this situation you are way behind or way ahead. If villain hasn't been getting out of line at all, I would just call his flop bet. I don't know about others, but I almost always pot the flop after reraising out of the BB regardless of what I have. If you call the flop bet, he's checking almost everything on the turn I'd imagine. I really wouldn't go broke here though against a good opponent. If you call the flop and he fires again 2/3 to the full pot I'd consider folding.

Then again if you think he's a donkey then stick to it and get the money in.

Oh and about the fold/push. This is terrible. Pushing here does nothing when you are ahead, and makes you lose tons when behind. Nobody besideds a total donkey(which this villain doesn't sound like) ever calls in this spot when behind.

davekngs · #14 08-02-2006, 05:16 PM

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If I was villain and held AK I would bet this flop nearly every time.

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I will pot this with AK more often than not especially against weak players who think slow playing trips in a raised pot is manitory

ajmargarine · #15 08-02-2006, 05:21 PM

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My reasoning: AK wouldn't pot it here.

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Please remove that from your thinking. A decent TAG should always bet AK there, especially after reraising preflop.

KingKory · #16 08-02-2006, 05:27 PM

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I'd rather fold/push.

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Ok, lets look at this villain's range.

If he's tag he could conceivably have TT, JJ, KK, AA, or AK (Maybe a weird AQs or KQs and MAYBE a small pair). This is really read dependent. Have you been button raising constantly the past 5 or so orbits? Has he ever defended or played back light?

In this situation you are way behind or way ahead. If villain hasn't been getting out of line at all, I would just call his flop bet. I don't know about others, but I almost always pot the flop after reraising out of the BB regardless of what I have. If you call the flop bet, he's checking almost everything on the turn I'd imagine. I really wouldn't go broke here though against a good opponent. If you call the flop and he fires again 2/3 to the full pot I'd consider folding.

Then again if you think he's a donkey then stick to it and get the money in.

Oh and about the fold/push. This is terrible. Pushing here does nothing when you are ahead, and makes you lose tons when behind. Nobody besideds a total donkey(which this villain doesn't sound like) ever calls in this spot when behind.

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Okay, so what's our strategy for flat-calling PF? How confident are we when the flop comes completely dry? Do we assume our overpair is good, and push? Or do we hope and pray for a cheap showdown?

Why not make it $20 PF, with room to fold to an AI? We have position, remember.

I can understand (somewhat) flat-calling for the hope of a set, but I'd like to hear some proponents of flat-calling with the idea of playing back at a dry flop.

I don't think I'm fashioning my question (or if I even have one, really) correctly, but I find myself in tough spots with QQ quite frequently it seems.

illuminati · #17 08-02-2006, 05:44 PM

Why not call the flop if you think he has the under pairs?

PokerPadawan · #18 08-02-2006, 06:06 PM

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My reasoning: AK wouldn't pot it here.

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Please remove that from your thinking. A decent TAG should always bet AK there, especially after reraising preflop.

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To clarify, I mean the bet should be smaller. I would expect a 1/2 or 2/3 pot continuation bet here. His bet looked too large to be AK. Keep in mind I don't expect 3rd-level thinking from him, in which case he would be hoping I have AA, and is hoping I'll push (think about that a while).

And the blinds are 0.25/0.50, so I raised to 4x the BB preflop. And yes this was online, but I don't know a hand converter for WPX.

yad · #19 08-02-2006, 06:16 PM

If he is the type to fold AA here (which would be stupid of him, but perhaps he is stupid), then this is OK. Otherwise it is lousy. I think a flat call is better. You are not getting any better hands to fold, or any worse hands to call, nor are there any draws you have to protect against. Then you should typically fold to much further aggression.

PokerPadawan · #20 08-02-2006, 06:24 PM

I'm not sure if this will help or just confuse, but here is how I think about these things:

He's a decent player, so I think he's thinking at least at the 1st level (what does my opponent have?). Since he didn't check the flop after reraising preflop, he's not a moron. If he's thinking on the 2nd level (what does my opponent think I have?), then he will bet the turn after I call the flop because he'll know that I'm looking to call bluff or see if he has the K. If he doesn't think that deep, he won't believe I have the K when I push the flop and will call with a lot of decent hands that I beat. I think it's unlikely that a player at NL50 will think at the 3rd level. Thus I'm going to make a big mistake when I fold to a turn bet if he's good, but he'll make a big mistake when he calls my push if he's not a deeper thinker than me.

Thus my push is the best way to get him to make a big mistake (folding AA or calling with a worse PP), while a turn bet is the best way for him to get me to make a big mistake. Since I get to force an error first, I push the flop.

For reference, based on my image at that table at the time, I could have AQ-AT, or a smaller PP, or even a small suited connector, since his reraise wasn't big enough to deny me implied odds to call, given his stack size. If he thinks I'm clever, he must be paranoid about me bluffing him here. This is a perfect board to test him on.