Playing vs bad poker players vs idiots...

[fatmanonguitar]

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I think that there is some bad information in the replies to this... It's not so simple as "bad players make more mistakes... You make money when they make mistakes (long term)"

You need to know who you are playing. You need to play different versus a bad player, otherwise you are making a major mistake.

The worst thing you can do is try to outplay a bad player.

For me, I make more money from good players. I have more trouble with bad players. But it's my own fault!

A very good player has a lot of tools/tricks against other good players. Against a bad player, a lot of your edge is negated. It's still +EV, but straight-forward poker is your only weapon.

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I think your increased success over "good players" compared to "bad players" is likely just your perception. Players are "bad" for different reasons. Knowing your opponents and their style and adapting accordingly is key.

The fact that winners make less mistakes than losers is overly simplistic but it's true. Knowing what mistakes constitute is the tough part.

[Vetstadium]

When playing total morons I play tighter and make them pay when I have a good hand, they will call preflop raises of 125-150 early with picture cards etc I just make sure I am raising with the goods. In the long run you will win.

[bad_egg]

No... actually it is not just my perception.

While 8-tabling, it is more difficult to adjust to single players.

Assuming a certain level of competence is really the only way to play, unless you have specific notes on a player.

Making those assumptions leads to mistakes, which is the reason why ROI typically decreases as you add tables.

My natural style of play (more loose, bluffing, outplaying post-flop) leads to more mistakes versus bad players

Even from a mathematical perspective--- who do you want to have to your left in an SNG? A tight-decent player, or a very loose bad player? Players who have very open calling ranges decrease the EV of pushing, yes?

[Bazuul]

At low limits or against lots of loose players, I quit trying to read opponents. Look at your cards, look at the flop, look at how many people are in the pot, then ask yourself -- what would PokerStove tell me to do?

Seriously, if reads are meaningless and everybody's calling range is 50%+, just focus on the odds. Stick to the basic math and you'll do well.

[fatmanonguitar]

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Players who have very open calling ranges decrease the EV of pushing, yes?

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Yes. But you realize this and they don't. And you not only benefit from altering your pushing range but also your calling range.

I think this debate may stem from how we are defining good and bad players. Again, to put it simply, good players make good decisions and therefore less mistakes. These decisions are influenced by math, psychology and intuition and should be variable depending on circumstances, especially the type of player your opponent is.

Are weak-tight players more predictable and easier to push off pots? Yes. Are erratic donkeys less predictable and more difficult to push off pots? Yes. Does that make them less beatable? No. As long as you adjust your play accordingly.


Here's a paradox. You would probably anticipate (justifiably) that the "idiots" you describe are losing poker players. By describing your other type of opponents as "solid/decent", you are implying that they may very well be winning poker players. How does it benefit your bank account to choose to play with winners over losers?

[AnthonyV]

i think that's really well said bazuul. i remember reading here once, (i think it was an Irieguy post) that in the long run, playing ABC Poker beats low-limit STTs always. i think that's one of the most unassailable things i've read here.

there should be some kind of STTF axiom: NO MATTER WHAT, IN THE LONG RUN, IT IS NEVER A BAD THING TO PLAY AGAINST BAD PLAYERS.

there. i said it.

[PrayingMantis]

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A very good player has a lot of tools/tricks against other good players. Against a bad player, a lot of your edge is negated. It's still +EV, but straight-forward poker is your only weapon.

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I think you should reconsider your definition of "edge". Of course there are "good" players who don't adjust well to bad players/idiots, but that's some sort of leak (sometimes major leak) in their game. If you could choose between playing idiots or OK players for the same money, and choose to play vs. the better players (because they are more readable) something is probably wrong with your game. Sure it can be a pain in the ass sometimes to play vs. players who have no clue, but in terms of long term profitability it is the best possible game.

It is true that in particular tourneament situations you might prefer a particular villain to be tight/"solid", but in general, the worse the overall opposition is, the more money you'll be making, and worse is usually in terms of over-loose play, and not the opposite. You want players who gives a lot of action, even if you are out of that action most of the time. This is especially true for SNGs, where you gain EV whenever 2 bad players clash.