plz help with this standard KK situation

[ManageJames]

Looks standard to me. I would plan on calling a check-raise and then calling on the river.

[Beachman42]

Sorry, I got ahead of myself. Obv. a 3 bet if checkraised. My reasoning is probably overly simple, but more than 50% of the hands that c/r here are dogs to our overpair. We are actually representing a larger range of hands than AA-KK. Villian's pf action makes me discount HIM holding AA-KK since there was no 4 bet pf with BB & Hero already putting in 3. Its primarily a value bet with the side benefit of really seeing if villian has a Q.

call the c/r, call the river bet = 2 additional big bets
3 bet the c/r, villian folds, we win 1 BB
3 bet the c/r, villian calls & checks the river I'm value betting (a non-A river), thus getting the 2 BB if he folds, 3 BB if he calls, & prolly folding if he c/r a second time.
Villian 4 bets the turn, I'm calling and check/folding on the river (non-K riv).

Please note - my biggest assumption is that I'm ahead right now. I'll pump the variance here a little in search of 1 more BB.

[geormiet]

[ QUOTE ]
by the way i originally hated 3betting a turn raise. now that i think about it its probably close to the same EV of just calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If your're folding to a cap you miss your chance at a two outer. If you're ahead he might fold a hand with 3-2 outs only which wouldn't be all that great. Also, if you 3 bet are you going to value bet the river? Because a lot of times a Q will just shut down and call the 3 bet and call the river, and you've managed to lose an extra bet.

[geormiet]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I got ahead of myself. Obv. a 3 bet if checkraised. My reasoning is probably overly simple, but more than 50% of the hands that c/r here are dogs to our overpair. We are actually representing a larger range of hands than AA-KK. Villian's pf action makes me discount HIM holding AA-KK since there was no 4 bet pf with BB & Hero already putting in 3. Its primarily a value bet with the side benefit of really seeing if villian has a Q.

call the c/r, call the river bet = 2 additional big bets
3 bet the c/r, villian folds, we win 1 BB
3 bet the c/r, villian calls & checks the river I'm value betting (a non-A river), thus getting the 2 BB if he folds, 3 BB if he calls, & prolly folding if he c/r a second time.
Villian 4 bets the turn, I'm calling and check/folding on the river (non-K riv).

Please note - my biggest assumption is that I'm ahead right now. I'll pump the variance here a little in search of 1 more BB.

[/ QUOTE ]


3 betting with the intention of calling a 4 bet and folding the river unimproved is no good. 13:1 to call the cap, so you don't have odds to spike, and on the river that is definitely an annoying spot to fold KK getting 15:1

[Schneids]

Too much NL for you lately? Yes you bet the turn (90-95% of the time) in LHE.

[Beachman42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I got ahead of myself. Obv. a 3 bet if checkraised. My reasoning is probably overly simple, but more than 50% of the hands that c/r here are dogs to our overpair. We are actually representing a larger range of hands than AA-KK. Villian's pf action makes me discount HIM holding AA-KK since there was no 4 bet pf with BB & Hero already putting in 3. Its primarily a value bet with the side benefit of really seeing if villian has a Q.

call the c/r, call the river bet = 2 additional big bets
3 bet the c/r, villian folds, we win 1 BB
3 bet the c/r, villian calls & checks the river I'm value betting (a non-A river), thus getting the 2 BB if he folds, 3 BB if he calls, & prolly folding if he c/r a second time.
Villian 4 bets the turn, I'm calling and check/folding on the river (non-K riv).

Please note - my biggest assumption is that I'm ahead right now. I'll pump the variance here a little in search of 1 more BB.

[/ QUOTE ]


3 betting with the intention of calling a 4 bet and folding the river unimproved is no good. 13:1 to call the cap, so you don't have odds to spike, and on the river that is definitely an annoying spot to fold KK getting 15:1

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. What does a TAG villian hold that won't 4 bet pf and will 4 bet the turn & lead the river? At that point, I can reasonably assume that I'm behind. At that point, I'm trusting my read on villian to see if I make a crying call on a blank river. Your line here is not taking full advantage of the pf action IMHO.

[geormiet]

"What does a TAG villian hold that won't 4 bet pf and will 4 bet the turn & lead the river?"

AQ, 44, 55


"At that point, I can reasonably assume that I'm behind. At that point, I'm trusting my read on villian to see if I make a crying call on a blank river."

How will your read change from the turn to the river? If you're planning on making a crying call on the river as well as call the turn 4 bet, then now you're getting really [censored] odds. For this to be profitable KK needs to be already ahead some of time, and i think it is almost never after you're 4 bet.


"Your line here is not taking full advantage of the pf action IMHO."

The fact that he didn't cap pf doesn't make me more inclined to 3 bet the turn. It makes his holdings all the more dangerous in fact because capping rules out KQ 44,55, possibly AQ type holdings.



This seems like such a standard just-calldown spot to me, I don't see anything exceptional about this situation or this opponent that would make me even consider 3 betting. You don't want to force him to fold a worse hand. You don't want to get punished by a better hand. You're in position. He can't have more than 3 outs if he's behind. Even against a turn c-r happy lagtard I see little merit in 3 betting, since he will fold his bluffs which would make up a large range of his hands. What am I missing here?

[andyfox]

"subsequent calldown of a checkraise seems standard to me."

Even more "standard," to me, since a 2nd spade hit on the turn.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
"What does a TAG villian hold that won't 4 bet pf and will 4 bet the turn & lead the river?"

AQ, 44, 55


"At that point, I can reasonably assume that I'm behind. At that point, I'm trusting my read on villian to see if I make a crying call on a blank river."

How will your read change from the turn to the river? If you're planning on making a crying call on the river as well as call the turn 4 bet, then now you're getting really [censored] odds. For this to be profitable KK needs to be already ahead some of time, and i think it is almost never after you're 4 bet.


"Your line here is not taking full advantage of the pf action IMHO."

The fact that he didn't cap pf doesn't make me more inclined to 3 bet the turn. It makes his holdings all the more dangerous in fact because capping rules out KQ 44,55, possibly AQ type holdings.



This seems like such a standard just-calldown spot to me, I don't see anything exceptional about this situation or this opponent that would make me even consider 3 betting. You don't want to force him to fold a worse hand. You don't want to get punished by a better hand. You're in position. He can't have more than 3 outs if he's behind. Even against a turn c-r happy lagtard I see little merit in 3 betting, since he will fold his bluffs which would make up a large range of his hands. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. what is your plan for the riv if he checks to you?

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
At lower limits my standard is to check the turn but in a 50 game against presumably aggro showdown monkey opponents your bet and subsequent calldown of a checkraise seems standard to me.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you checking this in lower games? does anyone else agree with this?