Pre-flop fold equity in SnGs....

[AliasMrJones]

If you don't want to listen to what good, winning, higher level players tell you that's your perogative...

You are being asked to call a 500 chip raise with the lowest possible pocket pair out of position. You're roughly 8-1 to hit a set with your 22. That means you have to win an average of 8 * 500 = 4,000 chips for this to be profitable. He doesn't have that many chips. Since you will often not get his entire stack (AK misses the flop, etc.) you actually need for your potential win to be a lot higher than that. Harrington advocates something like 20x. The fact that he will have position on you makes it that much harder to get chips out of him if you do hit. All of this says fold loud and clear.

I wouldn't make this play at any level. It just isn't worth it.

[Guthrie]

I'd never cold call with a low pocket pair, especially deuces. If you don't flop your set, then every card on the board is a potential overpair.

If you're playing for set value, you want to limp in behind other limpers, and hope the button or BB doesn't auto-raise. Then, if you flop your set, you have a lot of dead money in the pot. If you miss, you fold cheap. By calling a raise, you get in exactly the wrong position, as you are here. You convince yourself that you have the best hand, and some donk with an ace, or any ragged little pair, just keeps calling until he has all your chips.

[DonkdHound]

Tight play is usually the best way to play Sit & Go’s. However, there are players out there who successfully play loose from a wide range of buy-ins. The key here is, whether you play loose or tight, to play that style awesome, playing loose will put you in a lot more difficult spots, and I would assume raise your variance.

Personally I play turbos and play very very tight, then become a pushbot if I hadn’t caught a real hand to double up with. When you mention that you “can’t win” that way (tight play), I can tell you your making -EV pushes or perhaps missing a lot of +EV pushes...

Good luck, buy Sit & Go PT, and go over every push or fold late game that you make, you’ll catch on quickly.

[dsmith19711]

One of the most useful things I've taken from this site is that low PPs are absolute killers if you overplay them.

Through reading and, worse, losing money, I've realized that I am much better off limping these, and folding to any raise. Yes, you're favored in a race, but you are a huge dog to all other PPs - not unlikely holdings given villain's pf raise. Why call any raise when, AT BEST, you are a slight favorite?

[jackaaron]

So, play weak/tight until you blind down and have to start pushing, and push with good hands that you've already worked out are worth pushing vs. the high range your opponents call with using SNGPT.

If you happen to catch hands between the time you start, and blind down to push/fold mode, great, if not, doesn't matter because it's all worked out anyhow?

Is this right?

[bighomeytim]

I don't know, aren't lower level players loose early/tight later?

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

Okay...it's just, this IS lower limits. When you hit a set, for example, you double up. They can't lay down top pair, for example, and you even seen here...the guy wasn't willing to lay down two overcards. If they're going to pay you off like this, in general, and you can afford to call this raise pre-flop (i.e. it doesn't really impact your flexability), I think you do it.

This is higher limits. So, when you say fold pre-flop, are you considering the skill level of lower limit players, along with my current stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

The real problem with the hand you posted is how your read morphed from "He has a strong hand that will pay me off if I hit a set" to "He has crap, it's a c-bet, I can push" based on what you instinctively wanted to do (apparently, not fold). It doesn't matter that you got bad beat this one time. You're destined to lose as long as you're playing based on rationalizations instead of reason.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
So, play weak/tight until you blind down and have to start pushing, and push with good hands that you've already worked out are worth pushing vs. the high range your opponents call with using SNGPT.

If you happen to catch hands between the time you start, and blind down to push/fold mode, great, if not, doesn't matter because it's all worked out anyhow?

Is this right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you really understand the underlying fundamentals of ICM (or SnGPT)-based push/fold. You can't figure out in advance which hands are worth pushing vs. the hand range your opponents will call with. How many players are left, what the stack sizes are, position and the perhaps changing calling range of opponent(s) all create a situation and all play a part in determining whether you should push or fold. Because these things are constantly changing, your push range will also change from one hand to the next.

Most SnG players (at least at low buy-ins) have no concept of what proper play is when stack:blind ratios get small. This is where the money is won/lost in a SnG. Having a big stack when you get to the bubble is nice, but it is more import to make it to the bubble (or near-bubble) where you can use your push/fold skillz to dominate than to spew chips early trying to build a big stack.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]


Most SnG players (at least at low buy-ins) have no concept of what proper play is when stack:blind ratios get small. This is where the money is won/lost in a SnG. Having a big stack when you get to the bubble is nice, but it is more import to make it to the bubble (or near-bubble) where you can use your push/fold skillz to dominate than to spew chips early trying to build a big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is without a doubt the best advice on this topic.

With all the books, forums and info on playing tournament poker, the key fundamental thats been lost is "SURVIVAL."

Pick you're spots early.

It's almost comical to watch a big stack in the early rounds of a sng try to bully the table around.

IMO the playing doesn't start until you're near the bubble with the blinds at 50/100 - and it's more important to get there (with any amount of chips) than the amount of chips you get there with.

[ger664]

Playing a pair of 22 like this at any level whether speed, short-handed, regular or low buy-in is bad IMHO.