ajmargarine Hand, BalugaWhale comment....new thread

[NT!]

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i would never try to push your average player off AQ here. that's pure spewage

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Why does everyone assume he has AQ here? I'm not checkraising in this spot to get him to fold AQ/KK/AA. I'm checkraising to get him to fold hands that missed the flop and also PPs worse than QQ. Those hands make up more of an unknown's holdings than strong-to-monster hands.

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Depending on the villain and your image I don't think this is as profitable as you think. A c/r of this type does get called by worse Qs, A9, AK, gutshots, pocket pairs, or worse on some occasions. Average SSNL players who think they're thinking players hate folding to this raise. Many will fold to a second barrel on the turn if it bricks.

NT

[ticks]

I c/r flop when I sense weakness and villain is not a callstation.

[Spy Dog]

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Depending on the villain and your image I don't think this is as profitable as you think. A c/r of this type does get called by worse Qs, A9, AK, gutshots, pocket pairs, or worse on some occasions. Average SSNL players who think they're thinking players hate folding to this raise. Many will fold to a second barrel on the turn if it bricks.

NT

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I agree.

I'm wondering where I can add some flop checkraising to my game. It seems that Queen high flops where I have an OESD or flush draw would be a good spot. What about bottom/middle pair? Do I have enough immediate fold equity + outs when called to make this profitable? I really don't know. If I'm up against a loose-passive player then I'm not checkraising with any of these hands. But, I'm assuming a player who is 25-40 VPIP with a PFR of 10-20%.

[AZplaya]

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I'm wondering where I can add some flop checkraising to my game. It seems that Queen high flops where I have an OESD or flush draw would be a good spot. What about bottom/middle pair? Do I have enough immediate fold equity + outs when called to make this profitable? I really don't know. If I'm up against a loose-passive player then I'm not checkraising with any of these hands. But, I'm assuming a player who is 25-40 VPIP with a PFR of 10-20%.

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I don't know, I tend to avoid flop c/r's unless I have a monster draw or a monster hand. c/ring bottom/middle pair is spew, IMO, even against a 25/10 type. I think people tend to think a c/r is a bluff rather than a big hand, and look you up way to often to make doing this with anything less than TP/15 outs profitable.

[ChipStorm]

Think about the fundamentals of the play. A checkraise has the net effect of increasing the size of the pot, while at the same time offering better pot odds to your opponent to call than might otherwise be the case if you just led. The reason is straightforward: when you raise, villain has already put his money in, and you have already called him.

So when would you ever want to do this? Answer: when you have a monster. It's a trap play, and if your villain isn't astute enough to recognize that you may be trapping him, then doing it with a lesser hand is a mistake, for the reasons above -- you ARE bloating the pot, and you ARE offering him better odds than just leading out.

I checkraise flop sometimes when I hit my set on a very dry flop vs. a preflop raiser. I do it to trap his c-bet, because there's some chance that if I lead I won't even get that. But even with a monster draw, I'd rather bet/3bet.

[NT!]

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A checkraise has the net effect of increasing the size of the pot, while at the same time offering better pot odds to your opponent to call than might otherwise be the case if you just led.

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You can control the odds your opponent gets with the size of your raise, same as you can with the size of your lead.

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So when would you ever want to do this? Answer: when you have a monster.

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You need to do it with a variety of hands against the right players. If you only do it with monsters you're giving away way too much.

To answer your question Dog, you have to consider what your image is. If I am playing more loose and fast (or appear to be) I do it both with big hands and with draws, especially against players who like to get suspicious or courageous or just hate folding. Also with air against tighter players from time to time. If you get more respect at the table or are against tighter opponents you can also do it with made hands or air in heads up pots, to prevent opponents from c-betting you at will.

You also have to be aware of the net effect of frequent check-raises - most average or mediocre NL players hate getting check-raised and hate you as a result. If you c/r a lot in a particular session you may get played back at more often, or you may start forcing opponents to be more passive, depending on what they're like.

NT

[Matt_BB]

It isn't the same. When you check-raise you are turning implied odds into immediate odds. This is especially significant in internet NL games because the stacks tend only to be around the 100bb mark to begin with. The winner will get all of the immediate odds every time, because that money is already in the pot. The winner doesn't always manage to realize the implied odds he thought were there.

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...You can control the odds your opponent gets with the size of your raise, same as you can with the size of your lead...

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