ajmargarine Hand, BalugaWhale comment....new thread

[Spy Dog]

BalugaWhale says the following about this hand (Hero's cards don't matter for this discussion):

"c/r only gets called by monsters"

While a bit of an exaggeration, I agree with this statement for the most part.

Shouldn't we CR this to $16ish with any 2 cards against unknown or reasonable opponents? Villian folds this immediately more than 50% of the time which makes the bluff profitable.

I know that CRing this is a good play with any 2 cards (as long as it isn't done too frequently), yet I never seem to do it. Do most people have the same problem????? Should this be a relatively common play or am I overlooking something?


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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO ($100.35)
Button ($81.70)
SB ($102.83)
Hero ($104.75)
UTG ($93.50)
MP ($113.42)

Preflop: Hero is BB with X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Y[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $4</font>

[BukNaked36]

It seems like raises and check raises get called a lot on the flop just for spite or they think you are on a heart draw here - people just won't let go of AQ in this example. I think you'll have more luck C/R or 3 betting a turn or river scare card - a third heart in this case.

[KaiserSose]

"c/r only gets called by monsters"

This statement may have been true for Aj's hand, but it is certainly not true for all hands. Alot of people float a check-raise because they think its a bluff.

I think "C/R followed by a strong second barrel only gets called by monsters." but... do you really want to commit that much?

[terp]

i would never try to push your average player off AQ here. that's pure spewage

[Fly]

Check-raises are called by top pair all the time.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
BalugaWhale says the following about this hand (Hero's cards don't matter for this discussion):

"c/r only gets called by monsters"

[/ QUOTE ]

I just totally disagree with this premise.

Seriously, all my buddie-list friends with WtSD &gt; 30% did not get this stat by folding to C/raises.

Many fish simply do not fold top pair...ever.

[jakerc]

i agree, your average SSNL villain isn't folding AQ here to a c/r. i think a better line if we want to get him off the hand is to call and then c/r a heart turn. however, since we are OOP there's a good chance that AQ will check behind here, and then i don't think they are folding on the river no matter what happens, unless the river brings the fourth heart on the board or we push.

[Matt_BB]

[ QUOTE ]
"c/r only gets called by monsters"

[/ QUOTE ]

This just hasn't been my experience. I have the strong feeling that many players who I face will call a check-raise with top pair and then go into call-down mode, trying to get a showdown as cheeply as possible.

A check-raise followed by a big bet on the turn might push them off top pair. But that is more expensive when you are wrong.

Edit to add: oops should have read the other replies before I posted. Comforting to see I agree with the majority at least.

[Spy Dog]

[ QUOTE ]
i would never try to push your average player off AQ here. that's pure spewage

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does everyone assume he has AQ here? I'm not checkraising in this spot to get him to fold AQ/KK/AA. I'm checkraising to get him to fold hands that missed the flop and also PPs worse than QQ. Those hands make up more of an unknown's holdings than strong-to-monster hands.

[jakerc]

how sure are we that he has a worse PP or missed hand? i would maybe try a c/r if he's shown that he likes to take stabs at flops, but otherwise i'm still pretty wary about it, especially without any sort of pair or draw.