$11 Fold JJ L1 preflop? - Page 2

Gunther · #11 01-14-2006, 01:54 AM

I dont like a push here. The only hands that really call have you beat or have you with a coinflip race. Maybe instead of 3-betting preflop, would it be that bad to see the flop and if the flop does not contain A, K, or Q then push? Folding this here bugs me and seems weak-tight.

tewall · #12 01-14-2006, 01:59 AM

This is an interesting question. In real life, I'd fold this. But I wonder if this is wrong. You could double or triple up here, and Scruff is probably right that this is +EV. I'd still fold though. I'd push QQ-AA.

#13 01-14-2006, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like a push here. The only hands that really call have you beat or have you with a coinflip race. Maybe instead of 3-betting preflop, would it be that bad to see the flop and if the flop does not contain A, K, or Q then push? Folding this here bugs me and seems weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

flat calling the rr is awful - what if the orig raiser comes over the top? what if flop does contain a A, K, or Q ? you just commited over 1/8 your stack and now fold...thats awful

its either fold or push-i dont think push is that bad at the 11$

RobGW · #14 01-14-2006, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I find that the players at the $11s are soooo bad that you can pass up this one and beat them later.

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Thats one way to look at it. There is also the get the donks money before someone else does line. I think this is close. I saw some pretty weak raises and reraises and even all in calls with poor hands at the 10's. Then again it is a risk.

Flight_Risk · #15 01-14-2006, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone play this one out?

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t825)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO+1 (t800)
CO (t800)
Hero (t790)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t75, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO+1 raises to t135, CO folds, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you would play this hand out. I would approach it in two ways; either reraise all-in or call to see the flop. If the flop doesn't have overcards, I'm all-in on the flop. I'm definitely not reraising this hand preflop. I can't see folding preflop.

Flight_Risk

Nick M · #16 01-14-2006, 02:03 AM

I don't even blink. Instafold...what's happening on the other 9 tables????

Sherman · #17 01-14-2006, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding this here bugs me and seems weak-tight.

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But that's my style [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Scruff · #18 01-14-2006, 02:14 AM

I think you guys are giving a preflop raiser and re-raiser this early in an $11 S&G, way, way too much credit. The range for a reraise is much bigger than just AA-QQ, and you have everything else beat. At least one is likely to call with a lot less than that. The typical 11+1 S&G player sees AJ as a monster in this spot. You have a chance to triple up here.

The worst case, you are up against QQ (same suits) and AKs (different suit), you are 16%. That's very unlikely here.

Against AK/TT, you are 43% to triple up.

Against AK/AQ, you are 40.6% to triple up.

Even against AA/KK you triple up 15% of the time.

Against AJ/TT, you are 55.6% to triple up.

None of this accounts for the reasonable chance that both guys fold.

If you only get one caller, I think you are very likely to be ahead.

I think you have to push small-medium edges in a spot this early, not pass them up worrying about monsters under the bed.

Nick M · #19 01-14-2006, 02:19 AM

triple up???!!!!

we're talking about folding, and you think Hero should try and triple up?? Sorry man this is crazy talk.

Scruff · #20 01-14-2006, 02:25 AM

I think he should push, and a very large % of the time (in total) he will either:

A) win a big pot when both fold
B) win a monster pot when both call (remembering that it's early in an $11 S&G, not a deep stack WPT event)
C) win a very big when one calls
D) get lucky when he's behind and steal a very big pot

A small % of the time he will lose because he's up against AA-QQ. A small % of the time he will lose a race.

I think the positives outweigh the negatives. You don't have time to wait around for better spots to gain control of the tournament than when you have JJ on the 2nd hand of a low buyin S&G.