Preflop, shorthanded, SB question - Page 2

The DaveR · #11 05-23-2006, 09:01 AM

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never unless the sb is a passive idiot

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That means about 50% of live players are limp-able.

mikeyKay · #12 05-23-2006, 09:20 AM

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Of the times I choose to play, I prolly limp here more than 35%. The ads of the preflop raise here are IMO extremely overrated. The preflop show of strength and continuation bet just aren't enough IMO to counteract the positional disadvantage.

Come to think of it, I think about the only reason I do raise preflop from the sb is to stop the bb from raising preflop because he will then have position plus the ads of being in the driver's seat postflop with the continuation bet. If I raise from the sb, he (barring a 3 bet) will only have position.

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i think this is a real great post. in most of the online games i play in, i like a limp here due to the way a majority of my opponents play. i feel like your fold equity is very low in most of these situations, and its far better to give your opponents some rope to hang themselves.

when you limp and your opponent just checks, you can usually steal the pot with a bet on the flop. when you raise, you get your opponent all fired up, and now he can read your hand better, and as stated above, you have a positional disadvantage the rest of the hand. i feel like this opens you up to being "outplayed" much easier. if you have an opponent that always raises in the BB after the SB limps, you are always getting correct odds to play straight up and let him throw bets at you the rest of the hand.

just so my advice is not confused, im all for playing strong to semi-strong hands straight up and raising. i just like limping with some trashy hands, and hands that have some strength.

-mike

mike l. · #13 05-23-2006, 10:16 AM

i open limp there very close to 0% of the time. it fits nicely with my style of play.

Dazarath · #14 05-23-2006, 10:51 AM

When my opponent plays like this:

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
8 folds, Hero completes, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad As (one pair, aces).
BB has 6d Qc (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 8 BB. 

But ok, jokes aside, I will open-complete the SB in two situations:
1) As already mentioned, if my opponent is very loose passive, getting 3-1 on my money is too good of a price to not see the flop, but I don't see much advantage to raising something like 87o, especially if the opponent is one that will make bad peels, therefore negating my ability to "take the initiative".
2) If the opponent will raise two cards, when I complete. The thing is, if he's LAGro enough to 3-bet a lot of crap, I want to be raising a lot of my strong hands, so I can 4-bet, rather than just complete/3-bet. So it has to be an opponent that I feel jumps upon perceived weakness, but backs down to perceived strength. In this situation, I will raise my marginal hands, but complete my strong hands.

A prerequiste for both of these plays, is that the opponent is donkish and plays poorly, and/or reads hands poorly.

Bicycles_Biatch · #15 05-23-2006, 04:57 PM

for a completely different reason... Daniel N did a whole conference on "bring back the limp". Obviously, his point was for the bigger NL cash and tournament games; however, I think limping (in all posistions) adds great value to your game.

How many times have you raised with medium pocket pairs and been called all the way down to the river because everyone "knows" you're on AK and missed. Sometimes it's good and sometimes these callers bite you in the rear.

Often, I think limping adds a very deceptive / additional angel to my game.

Out of the small-blind I like limping. However, in the BB where i have posistion... I almost always raise.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #16 05-23-2006, 05:25 PM

FWIW I've noticed that my results in the SB are relatively poor overall when I open-raise. If the initial steal doesn't succeed, then it's very easy for an aggressive player to own you with position when he recognizes that you often won't have much of a hand. I'm fairly well convinced that a game-theoretic optimal strategy would involve a mix of raising, limp-calling, and limp-raising, but I haven't really incorporated this into my game yet.

luckychewy · #17 05-23-2006, 05:51 PM

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FWIW I've noticed that my results in the SB are relatively poor overall when I open-raise. If the initial steal doesn't succeed, then it's very easy for an aggressive player to own you with position when he recognizes that you often won't have much of a hand. I'm fairly well convinced that a game-theoretic optimal strategy would involve a mix of raising, limp-calling, and limp-raising, but I haven't really incorporated this into my game yet.

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I think the last few points you bring up a very good and should probably be done not only according to your hand and opponent but what happened recently while encountering the same opponent blind vs. blind.

skp · #18 05-23-2006, 06:39 PM

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I'm fairly well convinced that a game-theoretic optimal strategy would involve a mix of raising, limp-calling, and limp-raising

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Yes. Of course, I would add that the mix should go in with good and marginal hands alike. i.e. raise, limp-call, and limp reraise with AT et al and with 97 et al.

The other thing to point out here is that there is no shame in folding absolute junk like 83 out of the sb. I am however inclined to play almost any two cards in the bb to a sb raise.

Josh W · #19 05-23-2006, 09:17 PM

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FWIW I've noticed that my results in the SB are relatively poor overall when I open-raise. If the initial steal doesn't succeed, then it's very easy for an aggressive player to own you with position when he recognizes that you often won't have much of a hand. I'm fairly well convinced that a game-theoretic optimal strategy would involve a mix of raising, limp-calling, and limp-raising, but I haven't really incorporated this into my game yet.

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One of the huge advantages of LRRing from the SB is you can start limping with more hands, because the BB will be less likely to raise.

Josh