A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack

[J.A.K.]

2 VERY GOOD PLAYERS SAY RAISE AND 2 VERY GOOD PLAYERS SAY CALL.....UM...

[registrar]

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2 VERY GOOD PLAYERS SAY RAISE AND 2 VERY GOOD PLAYERS SAY CALL.....UM...

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Because Rizen will play his hand differently agaisnt different players. If it's me and he's played me, I can four bet pre-flop but probably find more value in calling and then calling the flop. As I haven't played Rizen, I probably raise the flop, if I haven't raised pre.

As Nath says, I don't bluff much/enough.

[nath]

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you dont think rizen folds QQ to a raise on this dry-ass board?

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if he does, you aren't bluffing enough

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that's the whole point of it being 9 high and dry, with my image, i stack 10 10 here 100 bbs deep.

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I stack 5 bet bluffs a lot here
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[registrar]

As it's Bond, I think he has the choice. He can go for a big pot/stcak here, with the risk that Rizen does indeed drop QQ at some point and I think that's probably best. I weould expect him to call pre-flop with AA. I don't know what I expect him to four bet me with, probably nothing, but I can't drop QQ-KK there so the pot's bigger on the flop. I'd be less confused and scared by a flop raise, if Bond had called my pf three-bet, so I think the value is in raising at least one of the two streets.

[NoahSD]

I don't see how this isn't an easy call. If we raise, we get way less chips out of almost every hand we beat (bluffs being pretty important here). Yeah, sometimes we call and the turn comes a K and we lose some chips from QQ/JJ, but Rizen's got plenty of hands that are way worse than QQ/JJ here (I assume.), and if we just call he's valuebetting half of all turns for a good chunk of his stack.

This is one of those great spots where lots of different turn cards are going to make him bet lots of different hands for lots of different reasons. Raising is a great way to ignore all that value.

[adanthar]

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you dont think rizen folds QQ to a raise on this dry-ass board?

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if he does, you aren't bluffing enough

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it's not whether you bluff enough, it's whether rizen thinks you do/how large his 3 bet PF range is

[NoahSD]

evg,
You're way off too. Unless I missed something about Rizen not knowing how to play 150 BB stacks, his preflop range is much wider than TT+/AK, so JJ is the nuts here.

The key is that on this board with this action, calling gets him to valuetown most of the hands that he calls a raise with and bluff the turn a lot (because you'll fold, and for metagame since valuebetting a huge amount of your range requires you to bluff a huge amount of your range).

[registrar]

From what I've seen, I don't think Rizen is [censored] around with a wide range here at this chip level. I think he's got what he's repping almost always.

[mlagoo]

it seems like the two schools of thought are:

1) you should be calling this flop because that's what you would do with 77+ so he can two-barrel air, hit a six outer to improve, and stack off with QQ+ (possibly JJ+) on later streets anyway; or

2) you should be raising this flop because that's what you'd do with TT+, AK/air, and so Rizen should 3bet the flop lighter and you get his chips here.

i tend to fall in line with (1), but i'm not totally convinced it's correct... it's just the style of play i've become comfortable with, i guess.

[namespace]

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it seems like the two schools of thought are:

1) you should be calling this flop because that's what you would do with 77+ so he can two-barrel air, hit a six outer to improve, and stack off with QQ+ (possibly JJ+) on later streets anyway; or

2) you should be raising this flop because that's what you'd do with TT+, AK/air, and so Rizen should 3bet the flop lighter and you get his chips here.

i tend to fall in line with (1), but i'm not totally convinced it's correct... it's just the style of play i've become comfortable with, i guess.

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I look at it a tad differently.

Villain thinks he's up against Ace/good kicker and Hero thinks he's up against mid-pair.

Villain betting the flop narrows screams mid-pair (if he plays as tight/solid as everyone says he does.)

Now the question, IMO, is how to extract max value from mid-pair.

LAG's raise the flop 100% of the time.
TAG's are screwed.

You raise it screams set.
You call on this dry board it screams set.

If I'm a TAG I'm raising a tad over min-to 700.
Hopefully he likes the come-over-the-top-of-me window, if not I start milking turn and river.