Open Raise 10BB?

[SpleenLSD]

The first time I sat at a 1-2 NLHE table I was making textbook 3x BB raises when everyone else was raising 6x to 10x pre flop and getting just as many callers. It's not the internet or a tourney.

[KipBond]

Follow-Up Question:

How does the 5/10 rule apply here?

From this post:
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Q: I've heard other posters mentioning the 5/10 rule. What is it?

A: The 5/10 rule is an important no-limit concept that first appeared in Bob Ciaffone's excellent book, "PL & NL Poker." To quote directly from the book:


"When contemplating calling a raise because your position is good, you have a clear call if the raise is less than 5% of your stack, and a clear fold if it is more than 10%. In between those numbers, use your judgement."


It's a good rule for calling a preflop raise with a pocket pair in hopes of hitting a set. The driving force behind the concept is the implied odds in a given situation. If you get your set, but the opponent only has 5BBs after the initial raise, calling to hit the set in the first place is incorrect.

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So, if you have 100BB, then a 10BB call in position is marginal. But what if people at the table only have about 60BB in front of them? Then you shouldn't call more than 6BB, right?

I'm still learning... just trying to think this through. Thanks for all the great feedback!

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
The first time I sat at a 1-2 NLHE table I was making textbook 3x BB raises when everyone else was raising 6x to 10x pre flop and getting just as many callers. It's not the internet or a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's what I'm talking about. If you get the same # of callers whether you bet 3BB or 6-10BB, then I'd opt for the 3BB. With monster hands (AA, KK), I want everyone but 1 person to fold, so I may just go all-in -- or bet 20BB or something. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (Yeah, that's probably not good either.. not sure what to do there.)

[KipBond]

A recent example:

I had just bought in for $200 in a $1/$2 NL game. Got dealt AA. UTG raises to $20 ($150 behind). I'm in MP, I think about raising -- but I need to raise to $60, which is about 1/3 of my stack -- pot committing me no matter what the flop is. What do I do? I push. Button calls with QQ ($60). UTG folds. I win $80. I'm happy, but I'd like to actually play the game rather than pre-flop push.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
Follow-Up Question:

How does the 5/10 rule apply here?


[/ QUOTE ]

The 5/10 rule only applies when you're heads up, however most of the time you'll be seeing 4 way or bigger pots. In this case you'll be making a good call unless everybody in the hand is short. Watch out though if there is one extreme short stack in the hand. His presence might kill your action.

[Frond]

This was also hard for me to figure out when I sat live for the first time last year and played some lower buy in NLHE. I too was used to online PF raises of around 3-4xs the bb but I would do that live and get 6 callers! Unreal. Took some getting used to. You have to adapt to the table

[rgold79]

As someone pointed out earlier this is really only a factor in low limit live NL. As you move up in levels PF raising becomes much more standard. Playing 1-2NL you really have to get a feel for what kinds of raises PF will drive other players out of the hand and keep you from playing large multiway pots with hands that are easily cracked. On the other hand, it also allows you great odds to speculate with hands that can win huge pots if the board hits well.

Like anything else it just takes experience to get comfortable with.

[Mike Gallo]

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You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA.

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Unless you flop a set. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[hime]

[ QUOTE ]
This was also hard for me to figure out when I sat live for the first time last year and played some lower buy in NLHE. I too was used to online PF raises of around 3-4xs the bb but I would do that live and get 6 callers! Unreal.

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I know, isn't it amazing? I was up about $100 from 4/8 last night (in under 3 hours) when the table texture changed and I was guaranteed that if I raised preflop, NASCAR, the Russian, and the Iranian were all going to call it. Suddenly you have to flop perfect or bail out, even from the large pot. I ended up leaving up $35 instead. :|

[Rottersod]

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I´m fairly new to live play -- migrating from the online world after the UIGEA. I like live a lot more -- it´s slower, but more fun and different strategies.

One thing that I´m just realizing is that people open-raise for a LOT more than what is standard online. I´ve seen a few people on here comment that a 10xBB open-raise is pretty standard. WHY?!? This doesn´t make sense to me. How can this be a good strategy?

Normal buy-in is 100BB right? So open-raise for 10% of your stack? And then what if you face a small raise? to 20BB? Or 25BB? You may be getting the right pot-odds to call, but with 1/4 of your stack in pre-flop, you have no wiggle room after the flop to get information or fold.

I can see if you (and everyone else) had 300BB stacks, maybe. But, even then, a 3-4BB raise is standard because you are getting the right price relative to the blinds. 10xBB, probably not.

I´m pretty sure they don´t do this in high-stakes-poker, right? I think a 3.5x BB raise is standard (since it´s a pot-size raise).

So, my question is... WHY?? Why is 10xBB raise standard... and how can it be right/good?

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I haven't seen 10X BB as standard in any of the games I play - from $100 (2/3) to $500 (5/5). The standard these days is about 6XBB on average. You need to raise more than 3X to get rid of a few limpers or else your middle suited connectors and top pairs are going to be worth a lot less, and a hand like AJ or AQ is going to be busted a lot more than you'd like. Try raising 3XBB with AQs and what will you do when you get 7 callers and the flop is 9TJo? Your 8's and K's may already be in play by 1/2 the players and you probably don't want to hit your A and get busted by A9. But if you'd have raised 6X PF and gotten 2 callers you might be in a better position to take a stab at a bet and see if you can take it all down right then if you knew what kind of range to put them on.