Open Raise 10BB?
 

I´m fairly new to live play -- migrating from the online world after the UIGEA. I like live a lot more -- it´s slower, but more fun and different strategies.

One thing that I´m just realizing is that people open-raise for a LOT more than what is standard online. I´ve seen a few people on here comment that a 10xBB open-raise is pretty standard. WHY?!? This doesn´t make sense to me. How can this be a good strategy?

Normal buy-in is 100BB right? So open-raise for 10% of your stack? And then what if you face a small raise? to 20BB? Or 25BB? You may be getting the right pot-odds to call, but with 1/4 of your stack in pre-flop, you have no wiggle room after the flop to get information or fold.

I can see if you (and everyone else) had 300BB stacks, maybe. But, even then, a 3-4BB raise is standard because you are getting the right price relative to the blinds. 10xBB, probably not.

I´m pretty sure they don´t do this in high-stakes-poker, right? I think a 3.5x BB raise is standard (since it´s a pot-size raise).

So, my question is... WHY?? Why is 10xBB raise standard... and how can it be right/good?

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

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So, my question is... WHY?? Why is 10xBB raise standard... and how can it be right/good?

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People are willing to call that size raise from time to time with weak hands. If you hold the better hand (however you might want to define it) and they are willing to call a 15x raise why wouldn't you want to put in the big raise?

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

You just don't want to see a 6-way flop with AA.

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

I wouldn't quite say 10xBB is standard, but it is not uncommon after some limpers. This is mostly true in 1-2NL. The higher you go, the closer you get to 3-4xBB standard opening raises. Even at 2-5NL, $20 is a common opening raise.

Try raising to $6 in a 1-2NL live game, and see what happens. You'll get just as many callers as if you limped, maybe more. From what I've seen, I'd say the standard open in 1-2NL is $12 to $15.

Now, as for my theory behind it, I think it stems from the fact that online money is "fake money." It's just points on your account. Online players tend to think of a raise in "units," rather than actual dollar amounts. In a casino, people see a raise to 6 or 7 dollars as no big deal, cuz "it's only 6 bucks." I do it, too. I'll call a raise to $7 with pretty much any hand I'll limp with, but not a raise to $12.

Another important point is that, since people are more likely to pay you off live than online (in general), your implied odds go way up. You can guarantee that someone will be willing to fight for a pot that was raised a little, rather than limped.

I'll quit before I start rambling (too late?), but you get the idea.

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

from my experinces in live games at local casinos, odds are rarely taken into consideration

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

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from my experinces in live games at local casinos, odds are rarely taken into consideration

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That's true. I guess I was talking mostly about me, not the rest of the players, so that makes my point irrelevant.

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

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from my experinces in live games at local casinos, odds are rarely taken into consideration

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Yes and no.

As reecelights pointed out to me on our last trip to AC: "fish have an inherent understanding of implied odds - i.e. "I'm going to play my 42o because if I hit the flop, I can stack this guy."

They do not take odds into consideration when they instacall off their whole stack with a flush draw with one card to come, getting only 1.5 to 1.

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

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So, my question is... WHY?? Why is 10xBB raise standard... and how can it be right/good?

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People are willing to call that size raise from time to time with weak hands. If you hold the better hand (however you might want to define it) and they are willing to call a 15x raise why wouldn't you want to put in the big raise?

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Minimize variance. Maximize skill/edges outplaying post-flop. Having enough chips left to maneuver, and letting them have enough chips to allow you to get away from a dominated hand.

Obviously w/ AA you can bump it up as much as possible to get 1 caller. Why force yourself to play short-stack poker by raising a big percentage of your stack? FTOP says this all starts as a battle for the blinds -- betting $20 for a $3 return doesn´t seem like a good investment.

And, like I said, the main problem isn´t with the callers of your big bet, it´s the raiser who bumps it up to 1/4 of your stack, but still giving you pot odds to call. It´s wrong to fold, but now that 1/4 your stack is in, it´ll be a lot harder to get away from. Basically, you´re variance just goes way up now. Isn´t it much better to minimize variance, and maximize the times when you are a huge favorite? Basically, playing smart more, taking less risk?

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

You're taking less risk of losing more money, but taking more risk of losing the hand. Raise a 1/2 game to $6 and get 1 caller, and you can expect the rest of the table to call after that. They're only looking at the growing pot, not any sign of strength from your raise. Now you have 7 to the flop and your chances of winning just took a nosedive, but yeah, you're only risking $6...

Re: Open Raise 10BB?
 

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You're taking less risk of losing more money, but taking more risk of losing the hand. Raise a 1/2 game to $6 and get 1 caller, and you can expect the rest of the table to call after that. They're only looking at the growing pot, not any sign of strength from your raise. Now you have 7 to the flop and your chances of winning just took a nosedive, but yeah, you're only risking $6...

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Raising to get people to fold is good. Raising more and getting the same # of callers -- increases variance (and the pot size, of course).