Limping ATo UTG and dealing with a button raise - Page 2

MrWookie · #11 02-19-2006, 09:04 PM

I really don't like the limp. I may like AT more than I should, but this is an easy raise, especially since you're effectively opening in UTG+2. With a PFR of 12 on the button, I think there's a pretty decent chance you have the best hand, and folding this guy is desirable. W/ BB gone, this play is probably +EV.

Str8Fish · #12 02-19-2006, 09:52 PM

-I don't like the limp in EP with ATo. I would tend to fold... especially at a tight table like this one seems.
-I'd tend to fold on the flop... it's a small pot and you should be more selective with when to continue in small pots. At least have some type of equity against a preflop raiser to continue.

Str8Fish · #13 02-19-2006, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the play. More of the time here he has two overs, and a percentage of the time he has overs, you have the best hand. I think the question is what to do when called, I think you have enough folding equity here to make this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

HERO has overs! And if villain has overs, chances are hero is dominated. There's no reason to continue with this hand after BB does a continuation bet.

dun_noo · #14 02-19-2006, 11:16 PM

What tag calls down to the river after being check raised on the flop with overs? If he's a thinking player, and he knows that you're a thinking player (not sure of this, but if he's a tag he may be paying attention), he'll think that your checkraise means more than simply overcards. This obviously isn't a c/r on the flop for value, it's a steal.

Kwaz · #15 02-20-2006, 12:40 AM

I need to know how the players in between you and button play and how loose the blinds are before endorsing the preflop limp.

If they're fairly loose then I like the AT limp. It encourages hands like JT, QT and KT and even weak aces to limp behind and keep playing at you on a favourable flop.

If they're tight (as it would appear), it's a must raise 8 handed.

EDIT: As for the c/r - what exactly are you trying to represent that you think button will fold to? I no likey.

FUJItheFISH · #16 02-20-2006, 01:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain on the button is quite loose and only somewhat passive. His PFR is about 12.

- What do you say about the preflop limp?
- What's the plan after this?
- What would you have done if BB had called? (Assume he's an unknown.)

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 4 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero raises...

[/ QUOTE ]

airwong

stats on button when he is on the button?

as for the hand: you are ahead of plenty of hands that villain can have and also putting pressure on the few better hands that missed. the best card for you on the turn will be a T, 8, or 6.

now a question for you: what were your thoughts on your limp pf utg? just curious if you had some specific reasons or a plan?

Aaron W. · #17 02-20-2006, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
now a question for you: what were your thoughts on your limp pf utg? just curious if you had some specific reasons or a plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was one of those spots where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. A raise would be the standard play. But there were a couple players at the table who seemed a little too loose preflop, in which case raising may not have accomplished the desired goal of shutting out players. Folding was an option, but since it was only 8 handed, I figured that I had just enough hand to go ahead and play it; after all, I'd auto-play AJo (and would auto-raise it). So after some thought, I decided I would just limp in and see what happened.

Lots of these preflop decisions are close enough that it probably doesn't matter what I do. Playing a marginal hand strong is close to neutral EV with a large variance (as long as I don't spew). Playing a marginal hand passively preflop is close to neutral EV with a smaller variance (as long as I don't spew). Folding is neutral EV with no variance. Being sure that I'm comfortable with postflop play is absolutely critical in this debate, because if I spew, folding is clearly best.

Edit: Accidentally deleted something:

[ QUOTE ]
stats on button when he is on the button?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's only been the button about 5-6 times by the time this hand happened. He was limping pretty often in general, maybe half the time or so. There had not been anything special that I've seen from the few hands that he raised.

FUJItheFISH · #18 02-20-2006, 02:58 AM

awesome. i should think more like you.

Aaron W. · #19 02-20-2006, 11:26 AM

Do you like the river value bet? I'm not sure if I do. Do I prefer a river check? Not really.

What hands will call if I bet? What hands will bet if I check? This seems like a good example of TOP pages 209-211.

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 4 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (7.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ts Ad (one pair, tens).
Button has Qd Jd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Button wins 9.25 BB.

MrWookie · #20 02-20-2006, 12:59 PM

River value beat is money, baby. Thank him for not raising you.

Edit: LOL at river value "beat." That should be "bet," even if you were beat.