tptk oop vs a raise on a flush draw flop? 2/4 - Page 2

danzasmack · #11 03-20-2007, 01:06 PM

Rounder,

You answered your own question.

If you think he will raise a flush draw on the flop then yeah a 3-bet is good. If you have a strong enough read vs. a player that you can bet/fold then you should. You don't have that read yet though so there's not much else you can do in the original hand.

Rounder 24/7 · #12 03-20-2007, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is 47 possible hands villain can hold. KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, JcTc, AK(8 combos), AQ(6 combos), AJ(8combos), A7(6 combos), A6 (6combos), 77 (3 combos), 66 (3 combos) and AhAd. Against these hands we win 20, tie 6 and lose 21. Thus I would suggest a call on river.

I know I will probably get my ass kicked with this post, but I can take it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]...

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but who in their right mind could calculate his holdings in time to decide whether or not a call is profitable? I understand ur logic and agree with you, but surely there must be some rule of thumb that people use in a situation like this ... like the odds ur getting on the river?

jba · #13 03-20-2007, 02:08 PM

i dont think there are enough combos of flush draws to warrant a flop 3bet. most players will fire again UI on the turn.

I think we're a dog and I don't think we should be looking for excuses to put more bets into the pot (or set ourselves up to fold later). especially when there are not many (any?) drawbacks to playing it passively.

Gurravasa · #14 03-20-2007, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is 47 possible hands villain can hold. KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, JcTc, AK(8 combos), AQ(6 combos), AJ(8combos), A7(6 combos), A6 (6combos), 77 (3 combos), 66 (3 combos) and AhAd. Against these hands we win 20, tie 6 and lose 21. Thus I would suggest a call on river.

I know I will probably get my ass kicked with this post, but I can take it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]...

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but who in their right mind could calculate his holdings in time to decide whether or not a call is profitable? I understand ur logic and agree with you, but surely there must be some rule of thumb that people use in a situation like this ... like the odds ur getting on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a few people in the world who could do that. I know I can't. But calculating probabilities like this of the table helps me to get a better feel of how I often I hold the better hand at the table. Thats one way I try to improve my game...

Rounder 24/7 · #15 03-20-2007, 02:26 PM

Ok well I have another post here against the same player. And it's a situation I find myself in quite alot.

Cryptologic 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (6 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB.

Is this flop raise wrong? If so why ... I dont even know why I did it. I think it was to slow him down maybe, but is that ever a reason to raise someone?

yourface · #16 03-20-2007, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've slowly come to the realization that always trying to put the last raise in when you have the best hand in will result in a few big wins and a ton of huge losses.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean by this? I think you may have worded it poorly, as I see nothing wrong with raising and reraising when we have the best hand.

do you mean that putting in the last raise with a good but not great hand, like in this case, just sets us up to lose big pots when we get popped on the turn by a set/flush and we have build a pot that is too big to fold?

I would have 3bet the flop in this hand because I think a player with these stats has a worse ace here more often than 2pair or a set, but maybe I am wrong.

jba · #17 03-20-2007, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this flop raise wrong? If so why ... I dont even know why I did it. I think it was to slow him down maybe, but is that ever a reason to raise someone?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah the flop raise is terrible. It's bad because you are probably a dog, and raising only gets him off of worse hands or lets him punish you with better ones. "slow him down"?? I dont even know what that means. you just kept betting.

Rounder 24/7 · #18 03-20-2007, 02:33 PM

lol - god Im awful.

Maybe I meant take control. I think I wanted to know whether I was infront or not ... once again Im sure that is a reason u should never raise for. So in this hand I should just call and bet when he checks? Would it be right to simply call down the whole way with this hand?

jba · #19 03-20-2007, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lol - god Im awful.

Maybe I meant take control. I think I wanted to know whether I was infront or not ... once again Im sure that is a reason u should never raise for. So in this hand I should just call and bet when he checks? Would it be right to simply call down the whole way with this hand?

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who cares if you're in front or not. you're going to spend at least 2BB to find out you're smoked and now you can't see the river (forfeit your 3outer). calling down costs 2.5bb.

yeah I just make sure a bet goes in on every street here.

Gurravasa · #20 03-20-2007, 03:50 PM

Talking about the second hand with A9o in the hole:

I can't see a good reason to raise TPWK HU here. If he has air he may fold flop or c/f turn instead of fire a second barrel on the turn. If he has a better ace you only bloated the pot. I can't imagine he has a weaker ace since he 3-bet pf.