Mirage 20/40 - Is waiting to raise the river here a mistake?

[Moneyline]

Nothing personal, but I think you misplayed every street.

Preflop: I don't know if TT is the hand I'd want to vary my play with here since it is quite vulnerable to overcards. With AA at a tight table I might be more likely to want to do this.

Flop: Not jambing it up here is a big mistake. You've flopped a huge hand that's likely to get some action, so throw in those raises.

Turn: Given how you misplayed the flop, I think you have to get the third bet in.

River: The pot is huge, and you have a huge hand. Don't fold.

It's also worth noting that SB seriously misplayed his hand as well by not capping the flop and not betting a turn that is vulnerable to free cards. The reason it's worth noting is that you made your fold based on your read that this was a good player, a read which looks like it is totally wrong. Also, I don't think it's a good idea to make huge folds based on reads after only playing for a single orbit with a guy and thinking that maybe you played with him before.

Just my opinion...

[green100b]

Making "Big" laydowns in Limit Hold Em in headsup hands on the river, when you are getting 18-1 on the call is a money loser. If you're beat, then you hit a cooler hand. But to make this fold, despite your read, will not do you any good over enough hands. I know you "read" him for KK but you have to be 90% sure to make money from this fold. I give myself credit for making big folds when I read a guy for a big hand, but I'm not laying down a 720 pot for $40, especially when it's a guy you think you have a line on. I played this weekend at Borgata and there was a guy who after 1 orbit, looked like a good player to me. after 2 orbits i realized he was awful and my assesment of him was incorrect. it's ok to make a call when you'rs pretty sure you're beat but are getting compensated at the end with huge pot odds.

The information you will garner is worth the $40 so you can at the very least know what he had and know if your assesment of his play is accurate.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was a mistake not to 3 bet preflop especially since this was just 7 handed.

Do you guys always reraise with TT even if the game is full in this situation? Are there situations where you would just smooth call? I would think that if the UTG was tight and the players behind me were loose simply calling would be best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seven handed greatly increases the value of this raise assuming that the UTG raiser can be expected to notice and adjust to the table and is not a very tight UTG raiser.

Against many UTG raisers, I will fold TT or smaller medium pairs. It depends on the raiser, my image in his eyes, his range, and the degree of control and/or predictability with which he/she can be expected to act.

Another factor in deciding to fold would be the relative texture of the game and the tendencies of those behind. You hate TT if it gets capped behind.

I'd almost never cold call from EP with TT against an UTG raiser. If you could be sure that the pot would be at least five handed (in a predictably passive game) you could justify the cold call. that's tough to predict and assure. Even in such a case, the set value of TT is somewhat compromised as the T figures in so many straight draws.

TT is very game and opponent dependent. Cold calling is usually the worst of the three preflop action choices.

post script to the OP: you have to call here always. I agree with moneyline's advice as to the play of this hand.

[vmacosta]

OP,
you're almost definitely beat. SB pf 3bets aren't very common in live poker. SB flop chk/3bets aren't very common either. If they then follow that up with a turn c/r and river bet/3bet, this basically means you're f'ed.

But I'd still call so I could sleep at night and because sometimes people just wig out with AA. Not saying its right...

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
OP,
you're almost definitely beat. SB pf 3bets aren't very common in live poker. SB flop chk/3bets aren't very common either. If they then follow that up with a turn c/r and river bet/3bet, this basically means you're f'ed.

But I'd still call so I could sleep at night and because sometimes people just wig out with AA. Not saying its right...

[/ QUOTE ]

i beat K6, so I call.

just 3bang PF, but you know that. raise the turn, call a 3bet, call the river. next hand.

Also, don't make superfolds when you underplayed your hand on 100 streets before it.

[DougL]

As several people have stated, since you played the hand deceptively you can't make the fold you made. Put yourself in the SB's shoes; how can he put you on a real hand? If I'm him, I think you might have KTs or KJ at best. If he is a good, observant player he doesn't have you on a hand as good as TT. At that point, how can you make a good laydown? You said that you played the hand to make the maximum, and you did it by making people believe you didn't have a set. At the end, you folded because the guy had to have your set beat based on how he played. This doesn't add up to me.

I played in that game a month ago. Either the game has changed a great deal, or your read of the game is very different than mine. The 20 game seemed to be more on the LAG side. Sure the 20 players can fold, but they have a huge capacity for agression. Did the guy in the SB have an almost shaved head and wear a white hat? If so, he plays a lot better than giving you as narrow a range as you did. If he thought people in the hand were out of line (like your play said you were), a good player could have a bigger range than you put him on.

Once you got lost in the hand, weren't you better off just calling instead of raising because you could be confident enough to fold to a re-raise? Isn't a good player capable of making a thin raise against you, once he put you on a hand? If you jammed it up the whole way, it is much easier to find a fold. If he had AA, how would he have played it based on the action in the hand?

Since he had KK, great fold. You were the one at the table, and your read was right. I don't think that you can be sure enough to make this fold profitable in the long run.

GL,

Doug

[Billman]

I'm always confused by these posts that ask about a particular decision when the entire hand is a fiasco. This is like the third post I've read today in a LIMIT game with some guy laying down a big hand on the river in a monster pot and then asking about his turn play.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG raises. Fold. I smooth call with TT

[/ QUOTE ]

Could someone explain to me what the difference is between calling and smooth calling? When in Vegas, is it best to actually say "smooth call" as I slide my chips out, or is "call" the only officially recognized phrase by dealers?

[ QUOTE ]
Button cold calls

[/ QUOTE ]

So this one is not so smooth, presumably?

[jeffnc]

The play on the early streets can be debated, but the river is just plain bad. You should never take any line here that has you putting more money in the pot than you need to and then folding. That's just bad. Your line you paid $80 on the river and have ZERO chance of winning the hand. Compare that with paying $40 and having SOME chance of winning the hand.

In general hands like this should be played more aggressively early and more passively later. But no matter how you got there, maximizing your losses and minimizing your wins is your worst option. Don't ever do anything that causes you to fold this river. Or to put it another way, don't do whatever it would take to convince you that the other player has KK. Do something else.