Maniacs make me into a donk

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I come from a limit background where playing against a maniac often involves waving a red cape in front of the maniac and encouraging him to charge at you as you call him down.

Since you appear to be talking about no limit (which is not my area of expertise), you should probably play in such a way that you get more heads-up pots. Hands that don't need much improvement to win, such as two big cards go up in value, while things like suited connectors go down (if you are successfully isolating the maniac) because maniacs are sometimes unbluffable and you can't successfully semibluff your draws if your chances of bluffing are nil. You could also be making the mistake of raising too often and by too much pre-flop. There are other players in the game. Just because a maniac is playing every hand, that doesn't mean that you should start playing your top 50% of hands on the assumption that your hand is, on average, better than his. It actually makes sense to tighten up pre-flop in no-limit hold em against a maniac.

If he is a true maniac who will make a three-bet bluff, then you are going to play much more aggressively and be willing to stack off with top pair middle kicker against some of them, but if he is really just a habitual bluffer who slows down if he encounters pressure, but who likes to bet or raise on scare cards, then you are going to do a lot more trapping and check-calling. Against the former, drawing hands are poor, while a pocket pair is something you might hold onto against multiple bets with overcards on the board. Against the latter, you probably make a decent chunk of your money by snapping off big river bluffs.

[e_phemeral]

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I also think being a little passive is correct here.

OP mentioned that this guy is calling down with low pairs and Q high. You want to out-maniac him? You're going to punk him down with garbage?

Besides that, you're not taking into account how vulnerable this will make you to the rest of the table - they are still there, after all. This strategy is very exploitable.

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I absolutely destroy passive players. Passive players will let me bet draws, catch draws and then pay me off because they never give me credit for anything. The amount of money that I make from passive players from stealing their blinds and from them folding to my continuation bets on the flop more than make up for the small pot that the passive wins when he hits a hand and calls me down. Why? Because it's totally obvious when one of them has hit a hand. Also, I'm usually going to have position on them. They get no action. You check-call my flop bet and I may slow down, unless I'm actually value betting a made hand. You check again on the turn, then maybe I check and hit my draw on the river. You bet river, I muck. You win small. I win big.

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There's a big difference between a true maniac and a good LAG - calling 10BB with T8 isn't all that bad against a guy who will go all the way with unimproved aces - if you're both deep enough.

Also, there's also a big difference between "passive players" and those simply playing a little more passive against a certain opponent type. Calling stations act in the way you describe.

That's not to say that you can't open up your range and make use of your position against a real maniac, but I'd be more inclined to value bet guys like this. If they overbet their draws and so on, then they're making mistakes.

Also, playing short against these guys isn't a bad idea either, at least until you get accustomed to dealing with them - you'll want some more money on the table when you do.

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Well, depending on your table image, you might be able to punk a LAG down with garbage. A good LAG will fold a hand. Might be harder to punk a true maniac down with garbage. But I am not suggesting that you try to start punking the guy down with garbage. Any reasonable hand will do. I'm not suggesting that you just start playing maniacally yourself. I'm suggesting that you "selectively" play a little more loose and aggressive against a player that you think is a maniac. You've got to have the sack to reraise the raiser and lead into him. If you just sit there trying to flop 2 pair or a set hoping the guy is going to give his stack to you betting the sh(t out of middle pair, then good luck to you. This might work against a true maniac, but it won't work against a good LAG because the LAG will probably have position on you, won't spew a lot of chips and won't pay you off. Plus, you may find that you have passively allowed the guy to hit a draw and then the "hunter" becomes the "hunted" and you will kick yourself for not raising it up at some point.

My point is that if someone is playing a ton of hands, betting and raising, then I think the best way to counter that strategy is for you to open up your range of hands, use position and dial up your aggression against that player. That is not to say that you shouldn't also mix it up by occassionally being passive against the guy when you flop a hand. Playing goot means you are constantly mixing things up, which is what I do when I'm playing LAGgy. I will occassionally mix in some more passive play with decent hands to throw people off. But if you are not comfortable mixing in a little LAGgy play against a LAG/maniac, then you will just have to let the guy run the table, occassionally trying to flop something on him. But that doesn't sound like any fun to me. And you won't make a ton doing this, unless, as we have already discussed, the guy is truly a complete maniac who will bluff off all of his chips. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[pfapfap]

A true maniac WILL lose his chips. There's no reason you have to be the one to do it, especially if it's not somebody you play with regularly. It can be expensive to attempt, and often times requires some tricky plays that could cost you if he wakes up with a monster.

At one of my regular games, there's a maniac/LAG who attempts to run over everybody. Often times he succeeds. But there's also a loose weak ATM who inevidably sucks out on him. I focus on THAT guy. I also keep the maniac to my right.

The maniac's chips will get on the table. Take them from other people.

[canada_dry]

If your goal is just to outmaniac the maniac, then basically poker has turned into BINGO. Shove in your chips and deal. The tighter players will take turn punishing both of you, since you are both now MANIACS.

[Gonso]

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If your goal is just to outmaniac the maniac, then basically poker has turned into BINGO. Shove in your chips and deal. The tighter players will take turn punishing both of you, since you are both now MANIACS.

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100% correct. Like I was saying, you make yourself too exploitable to the rest of the table.

[HiroNakamura]

What about playing the maniac in a limit game? For some reason, maniacs get the best of me. They seem to know when I only have Ace high and their bottom pair is good. Then they'll fold early when I do have a monster hand. To complicate matters are the calling stations that are in the pot as well. Sometimes I'll fold my hand believing that the calling stations who overcall have a better hand than I do, but in reality they're calling down with any part of the board (after all, they ARE calling stations). then the maniac shows down 2nd pair and I fold the winner and it puts me on tilt.

Do I just wait til I have a good hand and let them bluff into me if I have position? That feels so calling-stationesque itself. I've tried raising and reraising with my TPTK type hands, but the pot is so large by that time, everyone is right to call with their 2nd pair-5 out draws (which of course hit part of the time). I can't protect my hand. Just ram and jam and ride the variance wave?

[PokrLikeItsProse]

It sounds like you need to raise more with medium-strength hands, and by medium-strength, I mean a hand like middle pair with an overcard kicker on the flop. Strangely, you are probably also going too far with a hand like TPTK. You should be raising with middle pair more often than you should be capping with TPTK on the flop. Of course, at some tables, you should consider just calling the flop with TPTK and raising the turn.