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#111
04-17-2006, 09:43 AM
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Re: God and Free Will
The reason I asked about internal contradictoins vs contradictions between attributes is - if a contradiction emerges and you have to change the meaning of one of these attributes, which one do you change, which do you diminish? And how to you decide that, is it arbitrary?
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#112
04-17-2006, 11:15 AM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
I think knowledge is true, justified belief (modified slightly for gettier problems). [/ QUOTE ] When you speak of god knowing stuff, you don't mean JTB do you? chez
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#113
04-17-2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Doug - why is it inconsistent? [/ QUOTE ] Sorry Chez missed this the 1st time around. Allways beingness. The only way a God could even have the knowledge of his always existingness, is if he exist outside of anytime barrier what so ever. We cannot say god always was if we have an element of time. For 2 reasons if there is time, god cannot be allknowing, for he cannot know if something created him. To be able to know he would also have to exist at a place without time. So it is possible that god's exist in a "time" different then ours, with the addition that he must also exists in some form without time. [/ QUOTE ] Possibly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If god's timestream is eternal and he know that, then he know that he has always existed. He would also know that nothing exists outside this eternity. How he would know any of this stuff is a complete mystery but then how he would know simple stuff like what I had for dinner is also a mystery. Knowledge must come to god in a way we have no conception of. These sort of discussions always become a bit silly but its also possible that god chose to exstinguish his timeless element. chez
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#114
04-17-2006, 11:38 AM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
These sort of discussions always become a bit silly but its also possible that god chose to exstinguish his timeless element. [/ QUOTE ] It does seem that in spite of the sincerity of the participants to have an interesting discussion in this area, at some stage we run into a version of "and then magic happened". luckyme
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#115
04-17-2006, 11:44 AM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] These sort of discussions always become a bit silly but its also possible that god chose to exstinguish his timeless element. [/ QUOTE ] It does seem that in spite of the sincerity of the participants to have an interesting discussion in this area, at some stage we run into a version of "and then magic happened". luckyme [/ QUOTE ] Its more 'magic happended and then' What we are attempting to do is come up with an unexplainable but logically consistent state of affairs (by magic) and then proceed from there in a way that can explain everything. Its the same without god. We start with big bang or something else (by magic) and then try to explain everything that follows. chez
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#116
04-17-2006, 04:42 PM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
God clearly cant be all knowing yet still give free will. Before you were born, not even having set a foot on this Eath God knows ur future if he is all knowing. How is this free will? It is. Also, God is all good, right? Well before you set a foot on this earth he also knows if you are going to heaven or hell (since he is all knowing) so basically before you are born, God (as most religious people know Him) knows some people are going to hell. some kind of all-good god that is! [/ QUOTE ] Have you considered that maybe God knows what the actions of your free will will be? If somebody can genuinely see in to the future and know what will happen to you, this doesn't stop you from making those choices. I don't see why no other theist has mentioned this (well they might have, but I haven't read it yet). Free will =/= no omni 3 God
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#117
04-17-2006, 05:16 PM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] God clearly cant be all knowing yet still give free will. Before you were born, not even having set a foot on this Eath God knows ur future if he is all knowing. How is this free will? It is. Also, God is all good, right? Well before you set a foot on this earth he also knows if you are going to heaven or hell (since he is all knowing) so basically before you are born, God (as most religious people know Him) knows some people are going to hell. some kind of all-good god that is! [/ QUOTE ] Have you considered that maybe God knows what the actions of your free will will be? If somebody can genuinely see in to the future and know what will happen to you, this doesn't stop you from making those choices. I don't see why no other theist has mentioned this (well they might have, but I haven't read it yet). Free will =/= no omni 3 God [/ QUOTE ] Yes, its been mentioned.
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#118
04-17-2006, 06:42 PM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think knowledge is true, justified belief (modified slightly for gettier problems). [/ QUOTE ] When you speak of god knowing stuff, you don't mean JTB do you? chez [/ QUOTE ] I think so - but he can rely on a justification none of us can, namely that he is always right so it becomes trivial - God's beliefs = God's knowledge.
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#119
04-17-2006, 07:21 PM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] God clearly cant be all knowing yet still give free will. Before you were born, not even having set a foot on this Eath God knows ur future if he is all knowing. How is this free will? It is. Also, God is all good, right? Well before you set a foot on this earth he also knows if you are going to heaven or hell (since he is all knowing) so basically before you are born, God (as most religious people know Him) knows some people are going to hell. some kind of all-good god that is! [/ QUOTE ] Have you considered that maybe God knows what the actions of your free will will be? If somebody can genuinely see in to the future and know what will happen to you, this doesn't stop you from making those choices. I don't see why no other theist has mentioned this (well they might have, but I haven't read it yet). Free will =/= no omni 3 God [/ QUOTE ] Yes, its been mentioned. [/ QUOTE ] i think the point still stands that i have mentioned in a previous post. once God has taken ur life u no longer have free will as he has acted upon it
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#120
04-17-2006, 07:57 PM
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Re: God and Free Will
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] God clearly cant be all knowing yet still give free will. Before you were born, not even having set a foot on this Eath God knows ur future if he is all knowing. How is this free will? It is. Also, God is all good, right? Well before you set a foot on this earth he also knows if you are going to heaven or hell (since he is all knowing) so basically before you are born, God (as most religious people know Him) knows some people are going to hell. some kind of all-good god that is! [/ QUOTE ] Have you considered that maybe God knows what the actions of your free will will be? If somebody can genuinely see in to the future and know what will happen to you, this doesn't stop you from making those choices. I don't see why no other theist has mentioned this (well they might have, but I haven't read it yet). Free will =/= no omni 3 God [/ QUOTE ] Yes, its been mentioned. [/ QUOTE ] i think the point still stands that i have mentioned in a previous post. once God has taken ur life u no longer have free will as he has acted upon it [/ QUOTE ] I think that is stated too strongly. Once God has taken your life, that influences your choices, but doesnt eliminate free will. Couldnt you just as easily posit "once atheism has taken your life, you have no free will"? I dont see the distinction.
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