Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[Estrop]

Online Poker is a multi billion dollar buisness, do you really think that site like Stars and (maybe) Party are just going to stand by and allow bots to slowly drain all the money out of their sites?
It's in their best interest to keep as many players on their site and just because bots were recently found doesn't mean they won't just ignore this. The big sites have millions of dollars to spend to protect their sites compared to the people who make bots who most likly don't have as many resouces.
Bots, colluding, 3rd party software will always be an issue with Online Poker because of the way it is. But I don't think it's really in danger of collapsing from something like this.

[PlayaHata]

I am sorry MNpoker, i did not see your post about PT. I was probably typing a response to barcley at the time you posted. I was also defedning myself from complete morons that wont have a discussion but would rather have a bashing. anyway to your post,

you agree that data mining is in the grey area, but doesnt PT keep track of ALL HH that you have had with an opponent? i was under the impression that any information in your HH was readily availbale to PT and could display said stats as soon as an opponent sat at your table. if this is true, it is close to the same thing as data mining. although you did gather the data, it is no humanely possible for a person that doesnt use PT to remember stats from an opponent from 7 months back.

[PlayaHata]

well, i am leaving work now. if you would like to have a serious discussion with me, and not make some stupid comment to make yourself laugh, please pm me. to the people who have pm'd me to have a discussion, i will continue our talks when i get home.

[jb9]

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I disagree that the use or banning of software tools needs to be considered as an "all or nothing" issue. I think it should be practical to say "X is allowed, Y is not," but so far none of the sites have been very successful in defining these issues let alone enforcing compliance.

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that is why i advocate that ALL programs be banned. mrmoo made a good point, that ethics is in the eyes of the user. because, in all fairness to every poker player, we cannot allow joe public to make the rules on what is fair and what is not, poker sites have to ban all poker programs to keep the playing field level.

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I don't agree you have to ban ALL poker software, but I can see your point.

But before you can ban anything, you must have a way to enforce the ban. I believe PokerStars has publicly stated (on this forum) that they do not have a "1 player to a hand rule" because it is unenforceable.

This is a major difference from B&M poker, and I really don't see how you can enforce it. If a friend of mine is playing poker and I'm in the room, how can PokerStars stop me from looking at the screen and saying "fold, he has a flush"?

Likewise, you cannot stop players from using Poker Tracker (or similar software) unless you refuse to give players hand histories or you intentionally format the hand histories to be so varied that there would be no automated way to import them into a database. So far, no major site has decided to do this.

In the end, it will be a business decision, and frankly, I don't think the sites themselves have security at the top of their priority list. Most of their energies are going into marketing and promotions, managing customer accounts, new software development, and maintaining their servers and systems.

Until players start leaving sites due to poor security, the sites have little motivation to increase security efforts. (Right now players leave sites for: poor software, poor customer service, poor server reliability, poor account management, and poor promotions -- edit to add: poor games.)

[PlayaHata]

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to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

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Bots are against T&C, so it's cheating
PT is not against T&C, so it's not cheating
Bots are usually kept secret and not everyone has access to it
PT advertises there product, and everyone is allowed to buy one
Bots make there own decisions after they are programmed
PT cannot make any decisions, it only gives you information in which to make a decision.

Clear enough? Now go troll somewhere else!

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bots are available to everyone. google winholdem.

hypoethically. what if two people, better then avg, are playing from 1 account on 1 computer. they make better decisions because they have two minds and two brains to base their decisions on. would you or would you not have a problem with this?

and why am i troll? im trying to have a serious discussion, just because you dont like what i have to say im a troll? if you dont like it dont read it and dont post on it.

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I noticed that you didn't say anything about the T&C of every poker site out there not allowing bots, but allowing PT. Very telling.

WinHoldem is not a good enough bot to win money at tables by itself, unless you count bonuses. I'm probably below the average poster on 2p2, but I guarentee I am +EV against WinHoldem Heads up, whether it be NL, or limt (probably PL, I rarely play it though) Other bots are kept secret, b/c they are illegal on every poker site ever.

I have no problem with two people playing the same account at one time. Me my buddys do this all the time. We both have the same amount of information available.

Serious discussion lol. Just keep that tin foil on your head so that WinHoldem doesn't hack your account by reading your brain. The exact reason I am posting is to refute your pathetic logic. Troll.

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i never said anything about t&c's period. i said that winholdem is avaible to anyone willing to buy it. stop being so defensive, im sorry daddy doesnt love you. you cant change the past, just let go.

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What are you retarded? Read my post. I don't care if you didn't mention T&C, that's actually my point. Bots are unethical because they are illegal. Party poker works directly with PT because they believe it isn't unethical. Does this make sense to you? Buy winHoldem, and see if you can win money with it. You might lose less then you usually do, but, and this is the important part IT WILL NOT WIN YOU MONEY. Any bots that can wiin money the creator keeps to himself and makes money off of it. So not everyone has access to it. Get it?

Since you can't telll the difference between offensive and defensive, I guess your not smart enough to understand a logical arguement, so I'll cut you some slack. Nevermind, your a worthless troll.

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HU for your bankroll. anytime young buck.

[ShakeZula06]

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to people who advocate PT. please explain the difference, in your opinion, why using PT is ethical compared to using a BOT, which i would hope is unethical.

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Bots are against T&C, so it's cheating
PT is not against T&C, so it's not cheating
Bots are usually kept secret and not everyone has access to it
PT advertises there product, and everyone is allowed to buy one
Bots make there own decisions after they are programmed
PT cannot make any decisions, it only gives you information in which to make a decision.

Clear enough? Now go troll somewhere else!

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bots are available to everyone. google winholdem.

hypoethically. what if two people, better then avg, are playing from 1 account on 1 computer. they make better decisions because they have two minds and two brains to base their decisions on. would you or would you not have a problem with this?

and why am i troll? im trying to have a serious discussion, just because you dont like what i have to say im a troll? if you dont like it dont read it and dont post on it.

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I noticed that you didn't say anything about the T&C of every poker site out there not allowing bots, but allowing PT. Very telling.

WinHoldem is not a good enough bot to win money at tables by itself, unless you count bonuses. I'm probably below the average poster on 2p2, but I guarentee I am +EV against WinHoldem Heads up, whether it be NL, or limt (probably PL, I rarely play it though) Other bots are kept secret, b/c they are illegal on every poker site ever.

I have no problem with two people playing the same account at one time. Me my buddys do this all the time. We both have the same amount of information available.

Serious discussion lol. Just keep that tin foil on your head so that WinHoldem doesn't hack your account by reading your brain. The exact reason I am posting is to refute your pathetic logic. Troll.

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i never said anything about t&c's period. i said that winholdem is avaible to anyone willing to buy it. stop being so defensive, im sorry daddy doesnt love you. you cant change the past, just let go.

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What are you retarded? Read my post. I don't care if you didn't mention T&C, that's actually my point. Bots are unethical because they are illegal. Party poker works directly with PT because they believe it isn't unethical. Does this make sense to you? Buy winHoldem, and see if you can win money with it. You might lose less then you usually do, but, and this is the important part IT WILL NOT WIN YOU MONEY. Any bots that can wiin money the creator keeps to himself and makes money off of it. So not everyone has access to it. Get it?

Since you can't telll the difference between offensive and defensive, I guess your not smart enough to understand a logical arguement, so I'll cut you some slack. Nevermind, your a worthless troll.

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HU for your bankroll. anytime young buck.

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I love it. Somebody younger then you completely destroys your logic and you respond with penus waving. Didn't know we were bragging about poker skills here, but if you really want to if someone can transfer me some $ on stars I'll play you in some HU SNGs there.

Also I love the informative respnse you gave me.

REFUTE ANY OF MY POINTS IN MY ARGUEMENT. You can't, because you are small minded person likely in your mid-40s or something and thinks he knows more then me because he's older. Calling me young is an insult to yourself as you can't even logically debate someone half your age. Come on now, why does an 18 year old understand Aristotalian logic but you don't?

As I said, logically refute my points. If you can do that, I'll try to have someone transfer me some money on stars and play some HU if you really want to. However I want a set amount of games, no hiting and running if you get lucky. And it's a mix of NL and limit. If you beat me, good for you, but if you play like you argue, I'll be licking my chops. And as I said I am below the average 2p2er in poker skill.

[hotsauce615]

I said it, and I'll keep saying it. I think PT is unfair based on the fact that it's giving you information that you should be gathering yourself based upon play. A lot of people turn their heads the other way when people bring up the ethics of PT on the boards. As for internet poker, I love it [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[slim]

B&M poker is different than online Poker. Different rules, different game. If u like one over the other ,good for u, but don't call it cheating. That is why some people can win at BM but not OL and vice versa.

College baseball permits alluminum bats,MLB does not.

[remot]

Shake, not saying I totally disagree with you, but the legality of something doesn't determine if it's ethical or not.

[MNpoker]

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I am sorry MNpoker, i did not see your post about PT. I was probably typing a response to barcley at the time you posted. I was also defedning myself from complete morons that wont have a discussion but would rather have a bashing. anyway to your post,

you agree that data mining is in the grey area, but doesnt PT keep track of ALL HH that you have had with an opponent? i was under the impression that any information in your HH was readily availbale to PT and could display said stats as soon as an opponent sat at your table. if this is true, it is close to the same thing as data mining. although you did gather the data, it is no humanely possible for a person that doesnt use PT to remember stats from an opponent from 7 months back.

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That's why it's a grey area. You have AWESOME notes that are quickly available. But you still do not have information that is not otherwise available.

I happen to think that's OK.

If you really don't see the difference between that and a bot I can't help out anymore.