Super Monday - One Hand with Several Tough Decisions

DonT77 · #1 01-11-2006, 04:01 PM

So a couple weeks ago I played in the $150+12 Super Monday on PP with ~ 1400 players and I came across a tough hand right away-

On the second hand of the tourney I got QQ in the BB. With blinds at 10/15 and 1000 starting chips - UTG limped, folded to SB who completed, so I raised from the BB to 100.

 Q1: Should I have raised more? 

UTG called, SB folded. 2 to the flop, pot = 215.

Flop came Tc8c4s.

I bet out 175. UTG called. pot = 565

 Q2: Would you have played the flop any differently? 

Turn was 6s.

I checked, UTG checked.

 Q3: Would you have played the turn any differently? 

River was Ah.

I checked, UTG went all-in for my last 775.

 Q4: Would you have checked or bet out?

Q5: Having checked, would you now call the all-in? 

I'll explain my thinking on each street and give you the results later.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how would you play a strong (but not real strong) semi-vulnerable hand (to overcards, flush draw, possible straight draw) OOP against an unknown opponent? I gotta think there are much better lines than the one I took in this hand.

woodguy · #2 01-11-2006, 04:13 PM

1. 100 is fine in level 1

2. I probably pot it here so my turn push isn't too much of an overbet

3. Push. He called once, but my hand vs. his range dictates get it all in now, if he has AA/KK sets or two pair...nice hand, more likely he has a draw or a pair and may not *believe* you have an overpair.
I push because I expect to get called by a worse hand often, and I still need to protect my overpair, and any bet commits me to push it all in.

4. I push

5.I don't know what hand he calls the flop with that has an A in it except A8, or AT, so I am unsure if he's using the A to bluff or value bet, tough spot. I don't hate 750 chips in level 1, so I may fold, but I payoff/catch a bluff here too sometimes.....bleh, probably fold as I'm a little weak tight in this spot.

edit- it looks like a set sees an A, hopes you have one, and will pay off....weak-tight-me

Good to see you posting again.

Regards,
Woodguy

rockin · #3 01-11-2006, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So a couple weeks ago I played in the $150+12 Super Monday on PP with ~ 1400 players and I came across a tough hand right away-

On the second hand of the tourney I got QQ in the BB. With blinds at 10/15 and 1000 starting chips - UTG limped, folded to SB who completed, so I raised from the BB to 100.

 Q1: Should I have raised more? 

UTG called, SB folded. 2 to the flop, pot = 215.

Flop came Tc8c4s.

I bet out 175. UTG called. pot = 565

 Q2: Would you have played the flop any differently? 

Turn was 6s.

I checked, UTG checked.

 Q3: Would you have played the turn any differently? 

River was Ah.

I checked, UTG went all-in for my last 775.

 Q4: Would you have checked or bet out?

Q5: Having checked, would you now call the all-in? 

I'll explain my thinking on each street and give you the results later.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how would you play a strong (but not real strong) semi-vulnerable hand (to overcards, flush draw, possible straight draw) OOP against an unknown opponent? I gotta think there are much better lines than the one I took in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

just a quick take:

preflop - why such a big raise? (you asked should you raise more). this is almost 7 BB raise with 2 limpers before. think this might be standard for a lot of people, but i like maybe 5 BB's here.

flop - your bet is fine, maybe a little large, i like about 2/3 of the pot or 145 (villain could have anything at this point, set, AT, club draw, or even pocket pair, say 99-AA). if we bet 5 BB's preflop, pot is approx 155 and we can lead with a bet of about 110. so now you added 30 chips preflop and instead of 110 postflop we bet 175 (due to preflop and flop large bets). 65 chips added. pot is now (95 x 2) chips larger than necessary.

turn - my first thougt was that this was a bad check, since villain could have thought your flop bet was a CB and called flop for this reason alone, now i'm not sure if we are WA or WB here. I think i would have fired out 50% - 60% (say 55%) pot sized bet.

river - can't like the ace, suffice it to say, i fold here.

think you could have played every street differently, but you'll have a different opinion from everyone on every street also. I just don't like making this pot so big that we find it so difficult to get away from.

if you are betting 7 BB's preflop with QQ, how much are you betting with AKo. if it's different this is big leak in your game and can be easy for opponent to pick up on. Also, if it is the same, then you are playing to make these pots so huge that you can't get away from them after preflop and CB bets (on AK).

DonT77 · #4 01-11-2006, 06:59 PM

Preflop-
Well, in the first orbit or so, until I see how everybody is playing, I usually like to bet a little more with big pairs because the chances of getting called are pretty high, so why not juice the pot with a hand that figures to be ahead while some of the 'deader' money is still splashing around (nothing better than raising 6-7x with AA and facing 2 calls and then re-raise behind you)? The limp re-raise can also be effective from EP, but in the first orbit you don’t know yet how aggressive or passive your table is going to be so you risk getting involved in a 6-way pot. From LP I’m considering a raise with a big pair a value raise against limpers and protecting my hand against the blinds. Playing from the blinds with TT-QQ against one or two limpers gets a bit trickier.

I had a thought that the chances of flopping a set are about 1 in 8, so I wonder if I should have raised to like 200 to kill his implied odds of drawing with a hand like 77 or AK? Most likely I could get all non-AA/KK hands to fold for 200 (not sure if that is what I want, and I pretty much am declaring my hand, but it would make things easier for me ATF and it could prevent me from getting stacked by AA/KK or a big flop), but that would be betting 185 to win 55 so if don’t know if that sounds too great. OTOH, I do see where you might want to keep the pot small since you are OOP for the rest of the hand, but I also typically want to try to win the hand PF with vulnerable hands that figure to be ahead like TT-QQ. I am still wrestling in my mind on how to balance these factors in this type of situation. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Flop-
I felt like my 7/8Pot bet was strong enough to fold a hand like 77 or AK here - since I was representing TT-AA. I also felt that my bet was strong enough to fold any draw except for maybe ~AcKc/9c7c. At this point I was mostly concerned that he had a slow-played AA/KK or that he flopped a set or two pair. I felt my hand was too vulnerable to check, but how much did I need to bet to narrow his ROHs? Would my opponent really call a 7/8P bet (1/6 of his stack) with a hand like 77 or AK here against an unknown opponent representing TT+? At this point I felt like I was betting for information if I was behind, and betting for value & protecting my hand if I was ahead.

Turn-
I had 725 left and the pot was at 565. If I bet 240 (leaving 485 behind) - he'd be getting 3.35:1 on a call with a flush draw or OESD (and with implied odds it would be an easy call for him), so I really didn’t feel like I could bet to protect my hand anymore without pushing. Since he limped UTG and he called a large raise – I was thinking he had a pair or 2 high cards although I couldn’t rule out a hand like 78s. Since he called a huge flop bet – I was thinking he either had a set, an overpair, or a combo draw although he could be weaker than that. A bet of say 240 ATT only helps if he was calling ATF to test my mettle with a hand like 77 or AK, which is a play that a lot of players won’t make early; besides, betting 240 still doesn’t give me much info if he calls again or comes over the top. Anything more than 240 leaves me PC’d, but the problem is if I push, then I'm only getting called by a set or an overpair (does anybody really call here with a hand that doesn’t have QQ beat – AT, 99, not likely? JJ is the only hand I can think of that might call that I beat) although pushing the turn does price out any draws. So I don't think pushing is correct here either. Even in retrospect I think that checking the turn is probably the best play as all of the betting options seem worse.

River-
I checked with the intention of calling a small bet in case he had a hand like 77, T9/87, or a busted draw.

Of course he went all-in, so once again I had a tough decision.

The all-in bet looked a lot more like a bluff than say a bet of 200 or 300, but because it looks like a bluff it has a chance of getting called too. Let’s look at it from his POV- “Don has been playing this hand as if he had TT-AA,AK/AQ the entire way. If Don had AA or better he probably would have bet the turn or the river. With AK/AQ Don would probably make a blocking/semi-value bet on the river. But since Don didn’t bet the river, I put Don squarely on JJ-KK. Now with the Ace on board, I can represent the ace - so I push.”

Now, if my opponent has me on JJ-KK, then why would he push unless he is behind? Unless he thinks that I have a hand too good to fold and he has a monster? A lot of players on PP can not lay down a high pair - even at the $150 level. Was it a bluff to push me off of my hand, or was it a monster representing a bluff and hoping for a call – I guess I’ll never know as I folded and told myself “I wonder what the guys on 2+2 would have done?”

DonT77 · #5 01-12-2006, 10:32 AM

bumped for morning crew