dealers choice - take it or leave it

When2Holdem · #1 04-25-2006, 01:42 PM

im am very interested to hear your opinions and analysis of 2 of our regular dealers choice games.

they seem to me to be very clever games. one of them is sort of a chasing game and the other is sort of a bluffing game. both games require great reading skills.

they are basically 5 card H/L and 7 card stud H/L with a few variants.

1st major variant is that H/L is a declaration. when the betting is done, you come out with 1 chip in your hand for hi, no chips for lo, and 2 for both ways. both ways must use the same 5 cards (in the 7 card version) and must win both to receive any part of the pot. There is NO QUALIFIER for the lo.

2nd major variance is "take-it-or-leave-it". deal starts to the left of the dealer, but every up card is a choice. if dealer is seat 1 for example.. seat 2 gets an up card and then gets the choice to keep it or pass it to set 3. if seat 2 wants to pass it, seat 2 will get the same choice and so on. if seat 2 keeps it, seat 3 gets a new card and then gets the same choice seat 2 did, take it or pass it. if a player chooses to pass a card, they are charged.

we play a league so we use our chips as "points"

so the betting is as follows:

in 7 card take it or leave it
dealer antis 300 points
every round has a bet and 3 raises allowed
first 4 rounds of betting is 100 points per bet
last round of betting is 300 points
trading your up card costs 50 points until the last round where it costs 100.

in 5 card take it or leave it
dealer antis 300 points
every round has a bet and 3 raises allowed
first 3 rounds of betting 300 points per bet
last round is 600 points
trading your up card costs 100 points until the last round where it is 200.

do these sound like good games to you? what do you like what can you critique, and most important, what kind of strategy advice can you offer?

When2Holdem · #2 04-25-2006, 04:29 PM

oops.. my goof. i put this in the wrong section. i think it belongs in home poker? sorry about that. how do i move it? can i?

lefunque · #3 04-25-2006, 05:28 PM

I think your first variant is pretty standard and accepted at most DC games, less the non-qualifying low which is not much of a change.

#2 sounds like a gamblor's dream. How many times are you allowed to pass? ie Can I pass on one card and then pass its replacement as well?

When2Holdem · #4 04-25-2006, 06:25 PM

no sorry, i described that wrong. i cant see where to edit the post to clarify it. but each player only gets the choice once, whether it was a card given to them from their right or a fresh one from the deck. if they don't like the card they get next they are "stuck" with it.

the variant has gamble to it in 7 card because betting is so cheap on every round but the last. that and the fact that you get a possible 12 cards to make your 5 card hand means the hands will be big. the interesting part about the game is in the decisions people make. they might break or make a hand to their left or they may give away their hand by passing a certain card. with these reads combined with the ability to steal because of the declare aspect, it makes for a lot of fun poker.

the variant has gamble to it in the 5 card game too, but stealing is more prevelant here. lo hands get bricks and hi hands can still get big because there is a possibility of 9 cards. i forgot to mention we also play in our 5 card take-it-or-leave-it (aka nick's game) that a 4 card flush beats a pair, forgot to mention that. the hands don't always get big because the betting is huge. it has the biggest bets of any of our games. one thing about nicks game is that it is extremely dealer advantage. betting still starts with hi hand on on board but dealer gets to consider his direction (hi/lo) after he gets to watch everyone else decide and gets to see the results too before it gets to him.

Lottery Larry · #5 04-27-2006, 03:22 PM

"both ways must use the same 5 cards (in the 7 card version) and must win both to receive any part of the pot"

Ugh- a pig rule WITH a "same 5 cards" rule? Either you have some crazy gamblers, some Stu Unger level hand readers, or very few both-way declarers.

Declaration is not a "major variant" Also, with no low qualifier, the EV shift too strongly to the low-hand side (though the declare shifts some of it back). Don't play high starting hands too often.

And "pass the trash" is not a major variant either... unless you're talking about a variant from the casino-spread standard 7stud/8 game.

I'm not sure if I understand the point thing- do you not play with cash?

Lottery Larry · #6 04-27-2006, 03:35 PM

Thanks for moving this from OP, mods.... though, after I read that Royal Holdem post and looked it up, maybe it didn't need to move after all! :P

(no, this thread belongs here)

When2Holdem · #7 04-27-2006, 05:41 PM

thanks for moving the thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Ugh- a pig rule WITH a "same 5 cards" rule? Either you have some crazy gamblers, some Stu Unger level hand readers, or very few both-way declarers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd say we have a bit of all of the above, although it's mostly that both ways is a rare declaration. "don't get greedy" is commonly heard at our poker table. what's pig stand for? we tried doing any 5 of the 7 before, but it tends to have too much of an impact on the final score. these pots get big and a scoop just has too much weight in deciding the night's winner, considering most of our games are hi/lo splits. the only game we play where you can use different cards for high and low is omaha h/l. it is also the only game where there is no declare and cards speak.

[ QUOTE ]

Declaration is not a "major variant" Also, with no low qualifier, the EV shift too strongly to the low-hand side (though the declare shifts some of it back). Don't play high starting hands too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

there tends to be a tendancy towards players going low, although i don't neccisarily understand the theory behind it. can you elaborate on this at all? i figure ray zee's hi/lo book will also elaborate on this for me. it's 5'th on my list of books to read tho [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

in terms of going hi or starting hi, there is a unique strategy in the 5 card version. we call it the drain effect. if someone in early position passes a high card, say a J for example, and everyone passes it to the dealer, he should definately keep it regardless of his down card. if everyone passed a hi card, it means there are many lows, but that's not all. if they all pass a jack once, esecially in a 5 card game, they will be more likely to pass it again. in further rounds, almost any jack that comes out is likely to drain into your hand.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I understand the point thing- do you not play with cash?

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we do play with cash. the point thing was brought into our group (long before i arrived) by the oldest member who claims he has been playing poker for 70 years. mathematically, it's possible! i'm not sure where down the line he formulated this system, but it is really a great system. it allows us to have a tournament format (where you can only win or lose so much and never have to reach into your pocket) but we play over a course of 16 games.

like many home games, ours is not really about the money. our stakes are low, but this system could be used in any stakes.

every week, we each put in $10. $2.50 of that goes into a kitty for the league. there are 6 of us, so every week we play for $45 and $15 goes into the kitty. after a 16 week league, there is $240 in the kitty.

we have 3 different chip colours and dealer always antis a blue. there is different betting for each game that we play. most of our games are hi/lo split and except for omaha hi/lo, all of our hi/lo games are declare.

white chip is 50 points
red chip is 100 points
blue is 300.

we each start the night with 10000 points. if someone runs out, they buy from someone else. you can only lose $10 in a night but no one goes crazy if they're not winning the night because you can lose many points thorugh buying chips off others which will effect your league standings in the long run.

so here is the latest standings for halfway through the league. i should explain that the player in 5th is our "gambler", his variance is much greater than anyone elses. he also has fewer games so his next win or loss will have a greater effect on his average. the 6th place player just had brain surgery so that is her very valid excuse. (for the compassionate: she is recovering very nicely [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])