College kids - get off your high horses already.

[NT!]

This could have gone in either Politics or OOT because it's in response to posts in both forums, and attitudes that seem to crop up all the time. It's going here because Politics sucks, and I think it will reach more people here.

A few posts that recently caught my attention:

DeamonDeac on tipping

BluffThis on immigration and unions

I'm not trying to call these particular posters out. I don't recall having any unpleasant feelings towards Deac and although BluffThis and I disagree on a lot, he is actually making a useful point in the post I quoted. So if these particular posters, or any college-aged posters (I don't know how old you are Bluff), feel I am making unfair assumptions, I assure you it is not my intent to attack you or generalize you.

Now, this will piggyback off what I said in Politics:

Let me say that (as a college graduate) I'm noticing a lot of snide comments, many from current students or recent grads, about union employees or low skill employees or service industry people, or whoever you like, because many don't go to college.

College is great. But there are a ton of people who leave college and are only marginally more valuable or employable than when they started. And often their increased value is mitigated by the obnoxious self-righteousness, entitlement and snobbery they pick up along the way.

Many graduates end up in totally different fields than they originally studied, especially those in the liberal arts and sciences. They have to be trained or retrained, sometimes by the 'uneducated' unwashed masses who skipped college and worked their way up through entry-level positions. As a social worker I was trained by competent caring people who were far less educated than I. I hoped to leapfrog them in my field, and in some cases I have done so, but I have tremendous respect for the experience they passed on to me. College alone does not prepare you for most jobs, nor does it entitle you to better pay than someone who has a different skill set and level of experience than you do.

With specific regard to unions and the derisive comments of some about union employees, it puzzles me that some of the biggest believers in the free market are so dismissive of the desire to unionize. The value of any commodity - including labor - is dictated by what it can pull on the market, regardless of whether said laborer went to an Ivy League school or dropped out in 9th grade. And auto plants aren't looking for Harvard graduates. We don't criticize executives for trying to make money and increase their salaries - we praise them. What makes workers different?

We know that corporations work, if not always in concert then certainly in practice, to keep wages down, by relocating their production facilities, aggressively negotiating compensation, breaking unions, etc. Why wouldn't workers want to act in concert as well, especially when their bargaining power as individuals is much more limited? From a worker's perspective, being in a union serves their own 'enlightened self interest,' to use the phrase so loved by free-market defenders.

In conclusion, college students really show their asses when they cite education so universally and reflexively to justify everything from sub-normal tipping to low wages. It is a sort of chauvinism that, while not without basis in reality (as there are many desirable jobs open only to skilled, educated workers) is almost always indicative of a naive lack of understanding of what keeps society churning along. College gives you an edge, but it doesn't entitle you to anything.

NT

Cliff's Notes: Just cuz you go to college doesn't mean you know how to work, yo. Fo rill.

[IronDragon1]

NT,

I completely agreee.

Unfortunately with secondary education becoming college minus-or is it college becoming high school plus?-such attitudes aren't going anywhere soon.

[Tron]

Bitch please. In 2 years I'm going to have a degree in Neuroscience<font color="white">which is much, much less impressive than it sounds since it is a Bachelor of Arts and the courses consist of two Bio classes and some Psychology.</font> [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[107ofclubs]

As a current college student, I do sometimes feel that I am somehow superior to some of my friends who are working full time. I guess to some of them I am, but college really isn't for everyone. While some of these kids just aren't the brightest bulbs, being in college does not mean someone is smarter than someone who is not in college. Furthermore, hard work is valued highly in nearly every job.

While we call it "higher education" I really think that College serves more as a "filter" for jobs with more responsibility. For example, my father was telling me about a surgery he had on an ingrown toenail. Basically the guy gives him a shot and cuts off some toenail. Did this skill really require approximately 8 years of school and probably another 2-4 years of residency? Furthermore, currently I am a finance major in school. From all of my older graduated friends, it sounds as if all I will really need to know for the my first few years of work is how to operate microsoft excel, the telephone, and Microsoft Outlook. Does this require 4 years of school? doesn't sound like it. Don't even get me started on liberal arts degrees, basically paying for 4 years of school just so you can go to grad school? Seriously what can you get out of that degree?

Another reason that I feel the whole college thing is that it really seems like a new phenomenon in American culture. EVERYBODY has to go to college. And Parents are "supposed" to pay for it. My parents and my aunts and uncles all paid their way through for the most part. My father ended up paying the end of my mothers loans. Would all of the kids my age be going to college if they were paying themselves? I probably would have just gone to bartending school or learned a trade if I were faced with paying 30k+ per year.

OK, this has gotten a bit long-winded, but I think my opinions are clear. Any thoughts?

[Claunchy]

NT,

Good post. Part of the problem is how people typically view the role of a university education as simply job training. The purpose of college is to become better educated, which happens, in most cases, to lead to a higher income than a non-grad.

However, it's important to remember that being an A student doesn't necessarily make you more qualified for anything other than being an A student.

[NT!]

107ofclubs,

Thoughtful post, you make some good points. I agree that the role of college recently is a puzzling and inefficient trend. We could be training a lot of workers much more effectively with perhaps a shorter college program combined with better on-the-job training. Also, the idea that everyone goes to college dilutes the focus and importance of the education IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't even get me started on liberal arts degrees, basically paying for 4 years of school just so you can go to grad school? Seriously what can you get out of that degree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a degree in liberal arts and it was definitely right for me. I have an excellent general education including all the basics - history, literature, politics, philosophy, and of course that dabbling bit of science and math - as well as knowledge specific to my majors. I feel I am a much more well-rounded person as a result, and I think many programs that are more specialized or profession-oriented would benefit from stronger general education programs. However, you can lead a horse to water... but you can't force someone who's just trying to get a leg up in a pharmaceutical company to give a flying cowpie about Socrates or Bach.

One thing about liberal arts - graduates who jump right into the workforce with a BA tend to start off lower than those with a BS or other professional training - but they also tend to move up faster during the first few years. This was definitely my experience. It gives you some flexibility, which is great if you aren't sure what you want to do and are a humanities-oriented person. I've been out of school for three years, have a variety of professional experience, and now I can either stick with my current field or jump to competitive positions in a couple of others if I want to.

NT

[egocidal]

OP, is it hard to type on a laptop while on your high horse?

Dude, I am a freshman in college and so I could have money to get through high school and pay for some expenses here I worked in a factory for two years. Since you don't know everyone's backround, don't assume they have never done lower level work. I have seen those guys who have worked there for 20 years and are still there. I don't want to be like them.

[IronDragon1]

T7,

The blurring of the line between higher/compulsory education that I spoke will inexorably lead to feelings of the kind you're having now.

[Stat Boy]

The biggest issue I have is people saying union jobs are a way for the uneducated to make good money. Most of the union guys I know, realized in hs exactly what they wanted to do. Be a plumber, electrician, carpenter. They didn't go to college because it wasn't necesarry for them to work. They also have done a ton of training to become skilled in their craft. Doesn't mean they aren't as bright, in fact they are smarter than I am because they didn't drop a ton of cash on an engineering degree only to decide that they want to work in construction.

In my mind college is the tool people use to figure out their lives. Not everyone needs this tool, not everyone that has this tool uses it correctly. I don't consider a person smart who gets a prestigous degree then whines about how crappy their job is for the next 20 years.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
OP, is it hard to type on a laptop while on your high horse?

Dude, I am a freshman in college and so I could have money to get through high school and pay for some expenses here I worked in a factory for two years. Since you don't know everyone's backround, don't assume they have never done lower level work. I have seen those guys who have worked there for 20 years and are still there. I don't want to be like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG THERE IS AT LEAST ONE EXCEPTION, EVERYTHING HE SAID MUST BE WRONG

(Also note that NT never actually assumed that he knew the background of every college student in America)