Need 2+2's help (long)

[egocidal]

I have been playing online for a little over half a year now, poker in general for a few years. I had always had a good intuition for the game, but understood little in terms of poker theory and actual strategy. Enter SSHE and TOP and here I am a little bit later with more money to buy Christmas presents. (I am a freshman in college, so pretty poor anyway!)

Last night I returned home and was greeted by my father (Roman Catholic to the core, very religious and fairly narrow minded) by the statement that if he ever hears about me playing online or in a casino again (he saw a neteller deposit/several withdrawals on some bank statement, and heard from my either my uncle or my mother that I had frequented a couple of Indian Casinos in CA) he would stop payment on college, I would return to Indiana, and I would go to college if I could pay for it. (he's not bluffing, he would do it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ) He said that "No respectable adult would be ok with what you are doing. If you can prove me wrong I will let you play." I immediately thought of 2+2 and some of the great theory posts I could point him to. My goal is to convince this man that there is a difference between poker and, say, blackjack or craps. He truly does not see a difference. I was also going to show him the chapter of SSHE where it talks about how poker is "gambling" but also explains the fundamental differences between it and house edge games.

Obviously, I could just frequent the casinos and keep it a secret, or get a new way to finance my BR/neteller account, but I don't want to do that. I am tired of the strict black and white view that my father has, and would love to prove to him that poker is not dice. I do not have PT due to its inability to work on Macs, but I know that would be useful. I have paid for christmas gifts for the entire family this way, and paid for a lot of basic necessities as well (random clothes, books, etc.) So some links to good posts or some statements of your own directed towards my father, so I can show them to him, would be fantastic. Just a paragraph or so of your thoughts is good. I greatly appreciate anyone who helps out.


P.S.: My grades the first semester were not fantastic (econ and math were hard) but not at a failing level, and poker did not interfere with class work because I kept a schedule for my playing time. If this means some sort of a compromise, then that works as well.

[jaxUp]

Hmmm...this sounds like a tough spot, and I think you are heading in the right direction with this:

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I was also going to show him the chapter of SSHE where it talks about how poker is "gambling" but also explains the fundamental differences between it and house edge games.

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I'd try explaining EV to him and stuff like that. Most likely this will not work, especially if he's already decided that he's against it.

I'd explain to him that you depostied X dollars, and that you have sinced cashed it out, and now are only playing with your winnings. This coupled with teaching him about the mathematical side of it is probably your best route.


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I could just frequent the casinos and keep it a secret, or get a new way to finance my BR/neteller account

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I wouldn't do this. I think rather than that I'd try to find a new way to fincance my education. Lying to your dad won't help anything here.

[rufus]

Well:
1. Going to college is massively +EV
2. Getting your folks to pay for it is +EV
so, the smart choice is to stop playing.

Suggestion 1:
Accept the fact that you might end up stopping, and make it clear to your father that you're willing to stop playing poker (at least until you've graduated). Life sucks, but hey, someone else is paying for you to go to college.

Suggestion 2:
Read up on the catholic view of things.
A quick google pulls up something like:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06375b.htm

The fundemental problem that you'll run into is really *not* that it's particularly bad to play games of chance, but rather that taking advantage of weaker players is ethically deficient, and, realistically, that's how money is made at poker.

Unless your father expresses concern about gambling losses, you should not bring up any of the SSHE, EV, bankrolling, or bookkeeping stuff - you don't want to try to justify your playing by pointing out that it's profitable.

[JimGil]

If you do continue to play - I would just keep the $$ in the poker sites. Build up an incredible bank roll and cash out graduation day. If you do need some money, just have them send you a check - then go to one of the "Checks cashed" places. Or, open up your own bank account somewhere in CA.

IMHO, there is no way you will be able to convince your father poker is not gambling. He doesn't want to hear about EV - to him its just wrong - so I wouldn't bother.

[fairnbalncd]

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P.S.: My grades the first semester were not fantastic (econ and math were hard) but not at a failing level, and poker did not interfere with class work because I kept a schedule for my playing time. If this means some sort of a compromise, then that works as well.

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Nice. As a father I would certainly understand and empathize with my sons plight of keeping his "schedule for his playing time" open, while his grades were "not at a failing level". Especially as I was writing yet another check for out-of-state tuition.

The fact your poker playing wasn't interfering with your near failing grades in math and econ wouldn't even come into my decision making process. Hell I worked hard for my money and should want to write checks for my poker playing son's near failing grades instead of selfishly wanting to use those funds to enjoy the fuits of my labor in the golden years of retirement.

Geez, you might even have time for some good drugs without it even coming close to bothering your study time and those "near failing grades".

Son, if your dad doesn't succumb to all of your logic I hear you have plenty of time to play poker while here.

Good luck to you!

[Leonardo]

With due respect, you are crazy. Stop playing. Forget about you father finding out, what about the time you waste? Getting good grades in college can have a huge positive affect on your life. If you find math and econ difficult I cant see you being a great player anyway. Just making a bit of money on the side while getting bad grades through college is huge -EV. QUIT.

[AmnesiaLab]

Sounds to me like this is a moral issue rather than a math issue. If it is a math issue, great. Easily solved through a fairly simple education on the subject. If it's a moral issue, that's gonna be tougher.

Religious types object to gambling based on any number of premises. The Bible doesn't specifically prohibit gambling. You can search for yourself; there's nothing in there about gambling.

Here's a rundown of the most common issues raised against gambling on morals grounds:

"The poor are more likely to gamble than those who can afford it."

This is a statement based on lottery sales. It has nothing to do with poker. The anti-gambling religious sentiment is that the lottery is corrupt for taking money from the poorest citizens who are looking for a longshot win to get out of poverty. (Funny how some people will freak out about the poor buying lottery tickets that will ultimately fund state education, but those same people want to give tax breaks to the rich.) Frankly, the argument has always seemed fairly ludicrous to me; I grew up among plenty of families in poverty, and I never saw a family that starved because they spend all their money on lottery tickets and had nothing left for food. Regardless, if the fear is that you're a poor college student who will only make his situation worse by gambling, well, revert to the math explanation. Otherwise, this whole thing doesn't really apply.

"Stewardship" is a fun little issue they throw around; basically, it says that your money was given you by the grace of God and you therefore have a responsibility to invest it well. The second section of this syllogism supposes that gambling is a waste of money. Therefore, gambling is against the will of God. The entire idea is based off the parable of talents. The problem here is that for a skilled player in an easy game, gambling simply isn't a waste of money. If the player in question is better than the competition, he will win money over time. In the parable of talents, one of the men invests his gold and is praised for his production. One man buries his talent in the ground and is scorned for doing nothing with it. Seems to me that not playing poker-- and therefore, exercising a skill you have at your disposal which would be productive-- would be the waste here. Again, this is in respect to poker, not to gambling in general. But in the world of poker, once again, this doesn't apply.

Then we have covetousness and greed. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods, the love of money is the root of all evil, etc. If you're gambling, you must want money, right? Ha! See? Greed! But wait a second. Let's say you work at Taco Bell. I suppose you're just doing that because you love to make burritos? People perform tasks in order to make money in order to live. They're called jobs. People use them to make a living. Sometimes, people get paid to play a game. Professional athletes, for instance. I'm not going to get into a discussion over whether poker is a sport, but anyone who knows what it takes to learn the game well enough to become a serious player knows that it's not just an easy way to make some quick money. A minute to learn, a lifetime to master. This is work. It's the exercising of a skill. It's not "easy money". Unless you're on Party Poker, of course.

As far as respectability, watch TV. Look at the poker craze that's been going on. Poker is not a shady game dealt in smoke-filled backrooms populated by drunkards, reprobates, and gunfighters. It is a game of skill, a craft, played for recreation as well as money. Professional athletes get paid to play their games. Why not us?

Hopefully this won't lead to a serious rift between you and your father. If he's true to his word about it, you shouldn't have much trouble finding a "respectable adult" who would be ok with you're doing. They're everywhere. I'm a disabled US Army veteran, honorably discharged. Does that count as a respectable adult? What does? My sister and her husband are both lawyers, and they enjoy poker. (Wait... lawyers? Respectable? What am I thinking!) My father is a doctor and a very religious man, and he enjoys poker. Honestly, I don't know anyone who is against it. At least, not off the top of my head. The stigma that used to be attached to poker has dissolved, thanks in large part to ESPN.

I don't know if there's anything here that can help your cause. And I apologize for rambling. If you actually made it this far, bravo. Pardon any typos; this thing is too long to proofread. Good luck with your father.

[jaxUp]

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The fact your poker playing wasn't interfering with your near failing grades in math and econ wouldn't even come into my decision making process. Hell I worked hard for my money and should want to write checks for my poker playing son's near failing grades instead of selfishly wanting to use those funds to enjoy the fuits of my labor in the golden years of retirement.

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This sort of a sarcastic response doesn't really prove any point other than that you are a dick. When people go to college, believe it or not they don't sit in the library for 18 hours a day studying. They go to most of their classes, do the required work (which they might even procrastinate on) and maybe a little extra studying in the areas where they are struggling. OP sounds like a fairly average college student. It is very nice that his dad wants to pay for his education, but I don't think that gives him a right to hang it over his head over an ETHICAL issue. If the main issue that his father has is his grades, then I agree. But from OP, it seems like it was more of an ethics thing, and I think that he should be able to make ethical decisions for himself.

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Geez, you might even have time for some good drugs without it even coming close to bothering your study time and those "near failing grades".



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First of all, OP never said he had "near failing" grades, he said he has "not fantastic" grades. This could still be a reasonable average depending on his standards. Also, a lot of kids do take drugs in college and do perfectly fine. Some play poker AND do drugs and still manage to do well.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

No offense, but if you don't like your father's attitude, don't take his money to pay for college. Like everything else in life, the entity that pays gets to set the rules.

Otherwise, you're probably fighting a losing battle trying to convince him he's wrong. Ask yourself why you're in college. If there's a good reason, then that should take precedence over poker for now. Nothing you say will convince him that any bad grades aren't the result of poker, so he can counter any economic argument you might make.

BTW - being Catholic has no brearing on his attitude. I come from a staunchly RC family and everybody in my extended family gambles.

[walleyes]

No sympathy here. As a father who has put two kids thru college with a third on her way next year, I totally agree with your father. Clearly, the time spent playing poker could better be used in studying. Maybe if you were a 4.0 you would have an argument. But, the way your grades sound it's time to cash out and concentrate on the books. Frankly, I see way too many kids chasing the dream of being a fantastically rich poker playing pro. Most go broke and screw up their lives. Get an education and be thankful dad is paying for it.