Q8s in BB

Stoo_Pot · #1 04-20-2006, 11:31 AM

Villain is a bit of a maniac, saw him limp-cap J9o UTG then bet and raise a Q98 flop. Plays alot of hands from every position but makes alot of river folds.

Preflop raiser was a TAP after 112 hands vpip15 pfr10 that will continuation bet if it's a small field and never check raises - ever.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Lots of cold calling but table was pretty fishy

Flop: (12 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 3-bets, CO folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Wasn't sure whether to bet out or check to the preflop raiser... as he didn't bet I thought I'd raise villains bet to make him fold his probable overcards.
Turn: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.
I was a little concerned after villains flop re-raise that he might have a wacky two pair or set but felt like calling down. Would this be profitable against a solid player's flop 3 bet??
River: (12 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Fantam · #2 04-20-2006, 11:40 AM

Against a solid player, I would probably have just called the flop bet, receiving good odds to improve.

However, as you considered the flop better to be a maniac, 3-betting the flop to try to isolate him seems fine.

Once you were heads up, I also would have called down unimproved as your hand was not terribly strong but could have been good enough to beat the maniac.

bozlax · #3 04-20-2006, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop raiser was a TAP after 112 hands vpip15 pfr10 that will continuation bet if it's a small field and never check raises - ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an insufficient sample to make the highlighted read.

Preflop, flop and turn all look fine to me. Given your read that Vill "makes a lot of river folds" I might have thought about raising the river, but I neither want to fold to nor call a 3-bet, so I prolly just call. There really isn't a better hand that I want him to fold that I think he would fold if I raised, now that I look at it again...the only one that comes to mind is K8.

I suppose if you had a read that he'd call a raise with a worse hand, and only 3-bet with TP or better you could raise/fold, but your read seems to be that he's actually pretty likely to fold the river. No point in raising.

Stoo_Pot · #4 04-20-2006, 12:39 PM

I'm thinking if I were up against a solid player their 3 betting hands would be something like 66, 33, 88, maybe A8s K8s or an overpair so do you think calling down would still profitable?

If villain showed you TT after 3 betting, do you fold the turn UI?

kerowo · #5 04-20-2006, 03:05 PM

I think you can let it go on the turn since you didn't improve. MP3 likes his hand more than you like yours and either has you out kicked or has an over pp that he didn't want to 3-bet pre-flop, 66-JJ maybe only 66-99. You have 6 outs on the turn, maybe only 4, maybe none. Let it go.

OnePatheticLoser · #6 04-20-2006, 03:11 PM

Awesome flop play...
I suspect MP3 has an overpair on the flop though.
nh

bozlax · #7 04-20-2006, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking if I were up against a solid player their 3 betting hands would be something like 66, 33, 88, maybe A8s K8s or an overpair so do you think calling down would still profitable?

If villain showed you TT after 3 betting, do you fold the turn UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

A solid player would likely wait to raise a set on the turn, and would be unlikely to cold-call a pfr with A8/K8/etc. So, if he were a solid player (which your read says he's not), his most likely holding is an overpair that he wouldn't 3-bet pf, like TT/99 maybe JJ.

Buuuuut (Kerowo and OPL, pay attention to this, and stop being so weak-tight)...

...wait for it...

HE SUCKS. He's just as likely to have 2nd or 3rd pair with no kicker as a hand that's got us beat, not even a hand that MIGHT draw out on us. OP gave us a GREAT READ...give him credit and use it!

As to your second question, Stoo, that's simple pot odds, you need to figure it out for yourself. Show your work, and we'll grade you.

Edited to add the insult to the weak-tight responders.

man · #8 04-20-2006, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a bit of a maniac, saw him limp-cap J9o UTG then bet and raise a Q98 flop. Plays alot of hands from every position but makes alot of river folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
against this player I think a call-down is in order.

kerowo · #9 04-20-2006, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

A solid player would likely wait to raise a set on the turn, and would be unlikely to cold-call a pfr with A8/K8/etc. So, if he were a solid player (which your read says he's not), his most likely holding is an overpair that he wouldn't 3-bet pf, like TT/99 maybe JJ.

Buuuuut (Kerowo and OPL, pay attention to this, and stop being so weak-tight)...

...wait for it...

HE SUCKS. He's just as likely to have 2nd or 3rd pair with no kicker as a hand that's got us beat, not even a hand that MIGHT draw out on us. OP gave us a GREAT READ...give him credit and use it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be reading more into the OPs read than I did, but if you think it is that good than I can see calling down ui. Although my weak azz doesn't see us winning this too much.

Stoo_Pot · #10 04-20-2006, 04:03 PM

Ok,
vs TT
Need to improve to two pair or better so 3 Q's and 2 8's make 5 outs. At the point of the 3-bet we are getting 17-1 on the call with odds of 8.2 to 1 so it's an easy call. On the turn we're getting 11 to 1 pot odds so it's another call. Pretty interesting... If villain was a solid player, and I was pretty sure he was playing an overpair this way then I'd prob have to call turn and by the river with 13-1 pot odds I'd have to be pretty sure I'm beat to lay it down. Would you consider a crying call on the river with these odds?