AKo turn fold

Redeye · #1 04-17-2006, 10:06 PM

Two complete unknowns, just sat down. Standard fold on the turn?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero folds

Leader · #2 04-17-2006, 10:11 PM

cap PF? As played, I could see a fold, but I'm not happy about it.

Redeye · #3 04-17-2006, 10:20 PM

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cap PF? As played, I could see a fold, but I'm not happy about it

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I don't always cap preflop oop w/ AKo, especially against unknowns and two opponents. I like to mix it up with that hand, and I don't think it makes much difference in this spot. Like most pf decisions, I don't think its the interesting decision in the hand.

allisfulloflove · #4 04-17-2006, 10:23 PM

I don't see how you can fold that. I think you're still ahead enough of the time to justify a call with that much already in the pot. I would have capped PF, but maybe since you're UTG a call was better? I'm not sure about that.

Leader · #5 04-17-2006, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cap PF? As played, I could see a fold, but I'm not happy about it

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I don't always cap preflop oop w/ AKo, especially against unknowns and two opponents. I like to mix it up with that hand, and I don't think it makes much difference in this spot. Like most pf decisions, I don't think its the interesting decision in the hand.

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I think it's much more important to cap this against 2 players then one. I've called lots of big hands oop against one player because you can easily c/r the flop which is the same thing as cap and lead basically. The thing is that not capping effects post flop. If you cap, the action likely goes check-bet-raise-3-bet-and you cap. Then it's an easier decision on the turn, IMO.

Redeye · #6 04-17-2006, 11:07 PM

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I think it's much more important to cap this against 2 players then one. I've called lots of big hands oop against one player because you can easily c/r the flop which is the same thing as cap and lead basically. The thing is that not capping effects post flop. If you cap, the action likely goes check-bet-raise-3-bet-and you cap. Then it's an easier decision on the turn, IMO.

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I will just call AA, KK in this spot from time to time, although I typically cap. I will cap with AKs and AQs often here, about 50% of the time I will cap with AKo. I don't think doing anything in poker 100% of the time is correct.

An argument against capping with two players is that you build a big enough pot that the others will be tempted to peel, so when you all miss, you will win unimproved less often. When its HU, the a cap isn't making the pot quite so big, and people are more likely to call down w/ AQ, AJ and other aces on raggy flops. You can get a lot of value against these types of hands. Hands like AQ and AJ are getting a pretty decent price to peel, even if you have AK, making it more difficult to play after the flop because you have a harder time getting away with it. If one of the two players is in with a weak PP and there is a raggy flop, they will rarely fold due to the pot size. In this case you end up losing a fair amount.

I think there are arguments both ways, which says that it probably makes little difference, which is why I choose to sometimes do both.

In my hand, I don't think that my lack of preflop cap changes much. People will still think there is a chance I have AK here, since not everyone caps that hand, or something like AQ, AJ.

Redeye · #7 04-17-2006, 11:13 PM

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I don't see how you can fold that. I think you're still ahead enough of the time to justify a call with that much already in the pot. I would have capped PF, but maybe since you're UTG a call was better? I'm not sure about that.

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A call ain't so easy here. I check 3-bet the flop and still got capped by button who led on a drawy board. Most hands I beat by button don't make sense. There is little chance he has KK,QQ,JJ,TT here. HE could have some kind of flush draw, or maybe 3bet me with something like 99 or 88.

BBs raise could be a lot of hands that I beat and some that I don't. He calls the cap which means he could have a draw or be a donkey with a weaker ace.

BB continues to bet here on the turn when the flush card hits. This isn't a simple call situation as I may have to call 2,3 or even 4 bets since I am trapped between two people who apparently like their hand. The odds that I am behind here AND have to pay multiple bets to show down really outweigh the times I'm ahead.