A shorthanded line 75/150

[Scott Y.]

3-handed. Good player opens, SB folds, and you 3-bet A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and you check. Villain checks behind.

Turn is 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and you bet/3-bet.

1) How important is the flop check out-of-position in this particular hand? If it is suboptimal, what metagame aspects might compensate for this? How could you exploit them?

2) How important is a turn 3-bet? If you knew Villain held kings up and a bail-out low draw (holds 55/45 edge), would you still 3-bet? (consider implied odds)

I think this is an interesting sort of 'shorthanded theory' spot. Hope you play along. "It depends" and "I mix it up" are too vague, if true at all.

[OmahaShooter]

I think I would have to see the river with this hand, not too good at the whole theory part, but I would call this with the nut flush draw, nut low draw, and gut shot nut straight draw with a pair of tens.

I would imagine that he would not be able to tell what your hand is on that turn bet, he probably thinks you have the A2, but he may not know that you have the nut flush draw either, so you may still win a lot of money on the river if you do hit your flush.

Tough situation no doubt, but I'd see the river.

[blumpkin]

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Tough situation no doubt, but I'd see the river.

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LOL.

Scott- very interesting question. Short-handed O8 is a great game, and these posts are great. My standard play on the flop is to check/raise--was this your intention? Or were you check/calling for deception? I feel that good players can put you on AhXh when you game this flop.

I must admit that bet/3-betting this turn is not part of my repertoire. I think you have almost zero fold equity on the turn (villain won't raise here without a low draw after checking the flop IMO), so if you are trying to win with no showdown you would have to fire again on the river, and the semi-bluff/bluff is getting quite expensive.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit that bet/3-betting this turn is not part of my repertoire. I think you have almost zero fold equity on the turn (villain won't raise here without a low draw after checking the flop IMO), so if you are trying to win with no showdown you would have to fire again on the river, and the semi-bluff/bluff is getting quite expensive.


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I don't think it's for fold equity; after the villain's flop check he's betting for value.

[Scott Y.]

Just to clarify, the turn 3-bet does not imply an attempt to win unimproved - I actually think betting the river in those cases is a mistake. The value is more in terms of potential metagame and the extra bet(s) you can win improved. I'd rather not weigh in on the rest yet.

[jlocdog]

I think I bet this out o the flop and look to get a check raise in on the turn. Your flop bet will look 'standard' even though you flopped a ton of potential. On the turn you check the 'expensive' street cause the gig is up and your opponent isn't buying your crap. Likely that he makes a move to take this away from you now that you have shown weakness.

Best case scenario: You get the small bet on the flop and the 2 big bets in on the turn = 2 1/2 bets.

Worst case scenario: You get small bet on the flop and it gets checked behind on the turn = 1/2 but since you technically don't have anything, if you miss the river you can check fold for the bare minimum.

I think you probably bet the flop if you miss completely here so I would play it the same way when you flop a b ig draw or even a big made hand to disguise your play. Also, I think you check the turn if you miss so again you should play your misses and monsters in a similiar fashion.

[Gar Pike]

To me as Opp, your flop check/turn reraise looks like an attempt to keep the pot small, then ruin odds for draws. Possibly you have a pair of A's or K's up with a smaller 2nd pair (if I'm any good, I probably won't be raising K's up with low pair)

As Hero, thinking Opp has 2 pr/poss low, I am value raising my re-draws. I count about 24 outs for my hand to either scoop (10) or win lo (12) or hi (discounted to maybe 2, because they could improve his hand as well) vs 7 to 10 outs for Opp to improve or wreck my lo.

If you show down, they'll know you could be raising draws for value, in the future, when you're raising your made hand for value.

Also, they'll know you understand pot management and manipulating odds, and will fear you.

My $0.02

Regards

Gar

[Scott Y.]

OK. This is heavily tilted toward mid-high limit play, FWIW, where playing on higher levels is most often rewarded. If this sounds pedantic I'm sorry - they're simply my opinions.

First, I should emphasize that 2-high boards in heads-up pots play a lot like limit hold'em in that each player will "miss" the board quite often, so the more aggressive/tenacious player ends up ahead in these confrontations. If you always bet these boards, a tough player will put you to the test an uncomfortable % of the time. This is more difficult to handle than a simple bluff/light raise - you will sometimes face full-fledged 3-barrel bluffs in this spot (depending on the board) where your opponent raises at every opportunity and/or punishes you for calling a raise with a low hand and chasing to the river.

One strategy is to bet/3-bet the high flops with air a fair amount. If your opponent always raises preflop with at least a 2 card low combo, or is not super-tough, you can get away with this at an absurdly high rate (i.e. exceeding optimal bluffing frequency) if you are clever in the execution.

Unfortunately, there are tough players who know exactly what you are doing and will therefore punish your indulgence on the big streets when in position. At this point, the line "bet/3-bet flop, bet/fold turn UI" is a horrible default. You lay your opponent 7:2 odds on a bluff/semi-bluff that is not only lucrative for the second player, but also easy to execute once your strategy becomes obvious. So lacking a more mixed strategy, the antidote for your aggressive play is very straightforward.

What we are trying to find, then, is the most effective overall strategy for preserving both your bluffing opportunities and true equity when you flop "vulnerably." The latter term simply refers to those times you don't flop as well as this example - say A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. In a 6SB pot you need to see the turn card, but if your strategy is to always bet/call and fold turn UI you are 100% going to get run over by most opponents. Of course, if you frequently bluff 3-bet tough players you are going to sink also (rope-a-dope, turn raises, etc.). But you still need to see that turn card cheaply without ruining your chances to win UI...

What happens if we sometimes check the flop? Good things, it turns out. For one, it confuses many opponents (at least for a while). Confused opponents tend to 1) keep pots small, 2) play more honestly, and 3) give more free cards. This is a huge victory any time we hold that A297. Also, the flop check allows for further tricky plays later in the hand which help preserve a sense of uncertainty. The turn bet/3-bet is one such play, where Hero gives up very little value (perhaps none, as it turns out) and also helps persuade his opponent to eschew marginal raises in future hands. Another variant is obviously when your opponent chooses to bet this flop, and you raise him. Depending on metagame (see: tilt), he may be heavily inclined to 3-bet the flop light, often with a weak pair or flush draw and other backdoor possibilities. This allows you to extract a lot of value those times you do flop well. There are many ways to spin this idea. It is important never to fold to this bet, however, as you'd like to tell your opponent that he is walking into a hornet's nest by betting these flops a large % of the time.

There are other strategies you can use to maintain a certain level of 'trickery', including check-raising the turn with great 2-way hands (that seem like low hands) when the flop comes 2-low and the turn is high.

Anyway I've rambled on enough, I think. I had mixed feelings posting some of this, but hopefully it's for the best. Blah. Just remember that opponents miss bets and cede bets to tricky/aggressive players, so you'd like to be one wherever possible.