2/4 Butchered AQ in the SB Turn Decision

[Bluffoon]

Nine Handed. Second orbit. All are unknown. BB looks like a bit of a donk.

UTG limps, MP limps I complete, BB raises, all complete.

Flop

5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8sb

I decide to bet out hoping the BB raises to knock out the field. He does and UTG and MP both Cold Call. I call.

Turn 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8bb

I check, BB bets and UTG Raises, MP calls, 13 bbs in the pot and its two to me, I ?????

I really didnt know what the flip to do here

Flop comments also appreciated

Anyone wants to rag on me for preflop go ahead. I mix up my raising and calling with AQ in the blinds and I will probably continue.

Thanks in advance for looking at my hand.
Jim

[Pog0]

why do you mix it up? It's not for metagame because no one's gonna notice.

Is it just whatever mood you happen to be in?

Raising is more profitable than calling, so I just don't understand why you would want to mix up a superior play with an inferior play rather than always doing the superior one.

Turn is a fold.
I might 3-bet the flop. I probably c/r the field on the flop if I know BB will bet, and he usually will. You'll get calls inbetween from crap like JTo that is hoping to pair and hold up with ~3% equity and that's good.

[Niediam]

Raise preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I like the flop lead... but I'd 3bet for value. If villian decides to cap then I'd probably slow down.

I'd fold the turn. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were beating BB but I'd expect UTG at worst have to two pair but a set or better is more likely.

[Bluffoon]

When you raise you give up almost any chance of protecting your hand with a check raise. You are making up for some of the lost preflop bets with the check raise and protecting your hand at the same time. If you are giving up some I doubt its much and people do notice they do not like being check raised. I dont do it all the time but I throw it in there especially when I am new to a table and want to establish an image.

I do feel that check raising alot gets me more free cards and allows me to fold marginal hands more readily knowing that my opponents are aware that they may very well get check raised.

[tom10167]

Fold to the turn as you are hoping to be drawing to 3 outs.

[James.]

i would usually bet the turn for the same reason you bet the flop. man, the way you played it i don't really know where you are at. i would have 3 bet the flop, also. i wonder if UTG would limp 67s here? he could certainly have a set as those lower pp's are in his range. i would probably call, as even if you 3 bet the turn i don't think you eliminate a hand you want out. i may donk the river and assess the action after that to decide the best move.

[crunchy1]

I'm not usually one to advocate "betting for information" - but in this case, if you would've 3-bet the flop, you probably would've had an easier time reading your opponents hands on the turn.

On the flop - your first plan was to protect your hand - good plan. Now that the same players you were trying to protect against are cold-calling, it's time to revise the plan and gain value by 3-betting against what are likely draws and UI pockets pairs cold-calling.

FYI - the only Ace I raise in the blinds against reasonable and unkown players is AK. I don't think limping AQ here is bad at all. If there are limpers that are known donkeys and BB is decent - you have to raise. In this situation, I think you did fine.

[Nick Royale]

Against standard opposition I raise preflop, I think calling 3rd in from SB is bad. We're crushing the limping hands (at least they never dominating us, but we dominate them often) and there's no reason to give BB a free look at the flop when we're a big favorite.

I 3-bet the flop, easily. The only reasonable hands that beats us are AK/AA and we have 2 seemingly retarded players padding the pot. This 3-bet is for value (not for information) and it's easy.

Your too passive flop line puts you into trouble on the turn, not that the flop 3-bet is for information but I pretty often find myself in a situation like this on the turn because I underplayed my hand on the flop. The fact is if the flop bet/call would have been correct (ie you would have no value 3-betting) then this laydown would have been very easy, it's the fact that you underplayed your hand on the flop that made the turn decision pretty tricky. Anyhow I cannot see you continue with this hand profitably. We're behind/splitting with BB a fair ammount of the time and UTGs flop coldcall/turn raise makes this a must fold.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise you give up almost any chance of protecting your hand with a check raise. You are making up for some of the lost preflop bets with the check raise and protecting your hand at the same time. If you are giving up some I doubt its much and people do notice they do not like being check raised. I dont do it all the time but I throw it in there especially when I am new to a table and want to establish an image.

[/ QUOTE ]
With only 2 limpers in calling from SB to be able to check/raise a good flop seems just sooo bad. Bet if you hit the flop, there's no guarantee anyone will bet and since you've kept the pot tiny it will protect your hand.

I think you might have might up the concept with when you sometimes call a LP raise in BB to be able to check/raise a good flop in a multiway pot. In that case you can suspect a flop bet, here you can't. Plus you have no reason what so ever to think you're not crushing the limpers.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not usually one to advocate "betting for information" - but in this case, if you would've 3-bet the flop, you probably would've had an easier time reading your opponents hands on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

the flop 3 bet is for value; it has the ancillary benefit of information. and i raise this pf like 100% in full ring play.