Alright Give it To Me

[MTUCache]

Alright... I know I screwed up... let me have it.

90 Person SnG, FullTilt.

Typical progression, sitting around watching the donks bust eachother out and build up huge stacks for the first hour, double up with premium hands a couple times, and suddenly there's just two tables left.

I start making my moves, stay aggressive with my stack, win a couple coinflips, and I'm the chip leader at my table (2nd overall) before we consolidate to the Final Table.

At the Final Table (9 players) the only other big stack is seated two to my left. First hand ATs UTG+1, I raise to 5xBB. He calls, all other fold. Flop comes out T84o, I make a pot-sized bet and he folds. To him, it looks like a steal.

Second hand, KQh UTG. Knowing that he is going to assume that I'm on another steal, I make the same 5xBB raise. He re-raises to 15xBB (about a quarter of his stack). Folded around to me, and I push. (Feedback on this push?)

I don't know if he senses weakness, or just thinks I'm making a ballsy move for his chips, but he calls. Flips over A9d.

Flop: xQ9
Turn: 9
River: x

Busto.

2nd in chips at the final table, and I bust out 9th... plus, I've practically given him a free pass into the top 3, as he now has more than 60% of the chips on the table against 7 opponents.

Automatically, I'm aggrivated that I got so tangled up with the only other big-stack at the table. Obviously, he was looking to tangle, or he wouldn't have cared if I was stealing.

Did I just completely crap the bed here? Or am I right to mix it up with anyone at this point? I'm thinking right now that I should have just avoided him until we had moved up the pay-ladder a little bit.

Bleh... missed out on a golden opportunity there. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[jcm4ccc]

You don't want to avoid the big stack--you just want to play smart poker. Raising KQh UTG and then pushing to a reraise is not smart poker. Especially with the LAG image that you think you have. Your opponents are not going to give you credit for a bigger hand.

[rockin]

Are you playing a SAG style?

ATs from UTG+1 for 5xbb and KQs from UTG for 5xbb at the FINAL TABLE even, is very SAG. You are not playing position at all. You also claim that big stack would think your raise from UTG+1 was a steal. Why would he think that? Was your raise a different size than the normal amount you raise? Had you been raising a lot? Don't understand why he would think you were stealing from 2nd position?

Generally the typical raise early in a tourny is 3-5 x BB, more often 3 x bb than 5 x bb. As the tourny progresses, the size of the raises usually go DOWN and not UP, so I'm curious if this is your typical raise amount.

[MTUCache]

These were the first two hands at the Final Table, so all he's seen me do is raise in poor position.

My typical raise amount during the last couple of tables had been all ov

[rockin]

In my opinion, I think it is a leak to be building such a huge pot with these large preflop raises. You are making it difficult for you to get away from a hand with marginal holdings. Once you have built a large enough pot, you will either be giving yourself proper odds to call a REraise or be pot committing yourself in many instances.

As far as him thinking you were stealing or a maniac, I'm still unclear why he would think this, since it was your first hand at the FT. Now, I know a lot of players will observe the other table as they approach a final table, but that's not really what you are saying. You should be careful making assumptions of what people view your image as over the course of only ONE hand.

By the way, I think both of these hands are folds preflop, ESPECIALLY at the final table.

[Beachman42]

[ QUOTE ]

By the way, I think both of these hands are folds preflop, ESPECIALLY at the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno - I find these hands to be pretty interesting at the FT. Hero's large raises were a bit excessive as you pointed out, but I'm not folding these hands in this situation. ATs I 2.5-3XBB raise early at a FT for info as much as value. After doing that & getting KQs, I limp because I really don't mind folding to a raise from the CL but I am more willing to tangle with a shortie even OOP.

As the cards turned, unless Hero can get away from TPGK, he was busto on hand 2. It would be VERY hard to put villian on a 9 until you are committed. However, if I limped KQs & CL raised to 5XBB & everyone else folded, I can easily lay down KQ here & I have learned a little about the CL in the process.

[THEOSU]

no, raising with ATs and KQs is fine, raising to 5BB is not fine.

Make it no more than 3BB to go, you'll feel less married to the hand.

Also: don't 3bet push the only guy at the table that can bust you with KQs without reads.

[Foucault]

The AT is definitely a fold, and I'd probably fold the KQ also, though I don't mind the limp, since it is suited. Raising 5x is terrible. I'm assuming average stack size was like 20x or less? You are basically committing to call a lot of all ins with a fairly weak hand relative to the strength you are representing with such large EP raises. With a large stack at the final table, your strategy should be to steal blinds and pick off short stacks who are forced to make desperate moves. Since that should also be CL's strategy, you can try to put a move on him from time to time, when conditions are right, but building a big pot out of position against him with marginal hands is not a good idea.

[MTUCache]

I guess I hadn't been putting a ton of thought into the size of my pre-flop raises, other than trying to ensure that nobody was going to limp with weak hands... 3xBB had previously been leading to 4-5 players seeing the flop, while 5xBB had been either taking down the blinds or getting heads-up (this was all at the previous tables however).

As far as "committing" myself to my hand, or not being able to lay it down, that definitely was not a problem. At that point, the blinds were tiny compared to my stack. I admit though, I may have been tempted to chase with a nice flop (four-flush or o/e-draw).

Donked. No other explanation... I saw his re-raise, liked my hand, and pushed. I definitely wasn't hoping for a call, but it appears that my actions before this were begging for a call.

[Foucault]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I hadn't been putting a ton of thought into the size of my pre-flop raises, other than trying to ensure that nobody was going to limp with weak hands... 3xBB had previously been leading to 4-5 players seeing the flop, while 5xBB had been either taking down the blinds or getting heads-up (this was all at the previous tables however).

As far as "committing" myself to my hand, or not being able to lay it down, that definitely was not a problem. At that point, the blinds were tiny compared to my stack. I admit though, I may have been tempted to chase with a nice flop (four-flush or o/e-draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Details like these are very important in analyzing situations. What exactly were the blinds and stack sizes at the final table? If at the last two tables a 3x raise was getting 4-5 callers, then raising KQ and AT from early position is suicidal. Just wait for monsters, it sounds like getting them paid off isn't hard. Final tables tend to have a unique feel to them, and I'm not saying raising KQs UTG is always wrong, but I wouldn't do it until I had more a feel for how the table was playing, and if I did make that raise, it would be because I thought that a medium stack behind me would be folding hands as good as AQ, based on my image and how the table had been playing.