Alan Goehring on min raising - do you agree?

[mephisto]

I found the latest Cardplayer interview with Alan Goehring to be really interesting for me, especially his views on his unorthodox style.

This is what he had to say specifically about the subject at hand:


"When I won the WPT championship, I would say that 98 percent of my opening raises were for exactly two times the big blind, and in the recent LAPC I won, I would say that 90 percent of my raises were exactly two times the big blind, with the other 10 percent being, at a maximum, two and a half times the big blind."

"I have never read a poker book that suggests regularly making such a small raise, and in fact some books explicitly state that this is poor play. On occasion, a player who doesn’t know me will advise me to raise more, saying I will not be able to get the blinds to fold with such a modest raise. My response is, well, maybe I don’t want the blinds to fold, because if the blinds fold, I am not going to win much. So, it doesn’t matter what I have or if I am in early or late position, it is going to be two times the big blind. Maybe it works for me because of the range of hands I play or how I play after the flop — but I would say, get used to it, because there is no way I will ever change that part of my game."

This really struck me, because the fundamental question must be asked why do we raise 3xBB with our premium hands? Don't we want action from our best starting cards in order to maximize value? Wouldn't it be great if someone re-raised us with our AA, KK, AK, QQ's when they think we are min raising out of weakness?

Anyways, I'd love to hear what some of you guys think of Alan Goehring's play and whether or not it can translate well to internet play.

As for myself, I'm going to experiment a bit with it today in the 4/180s and see how it goes.

[seke2]

Smaller preflop raises mean that he's often allowing opponents to play correctly (according to the fundamental theory of poker) when they make a marginal preflop call. I don't see how that can be a good thing unless his skill edge is so large and he can read other players so well that it makes up for it.

[Foucault]

Hard to say, since he didn't really explain why he does it or thinks it is a good idea.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
As for myself, I'm going to experiment a bit with it today in the 4/180s and see how it goes.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see people experimenting with it online all the time. They're called donks.

I think later in tournaments when the blinds are quite big in relation to the size of the stacks it can be a good play, since even a minraise represents a large portion of, for example, the big blinds stack, he still will often fold even getting the big odds in order to preserve his stack. In big live tourneys though the money is generally pretty deep through most stages of the tournament and is therefore not as advisable in those conditions. Taking small pots preflop (i.e. blinds and antes) should be a high priority for anyone who plays a lot of pots.

[mephisto]

Isn't that a good thing, to want your opponents to play 'correctly' and play hands that are dominated by you?

[Lloyd]

Where's your advantage? If you're Goehring (and I'm not, you're not, very few people are) you have a tremendous advantage post-flop. You can afford to let people see the flop more cheaply because you can and will outplay them after that. Goehring will get away from hands that most people simply won't. He's also talking about a tournament with much deeper stacks than those we typically play online. This again is clearly advantageous to someone who can outplay post-flop as without deepstacks you just can't get involved with lots of hands with any amount of post-flop aggression.

It's almost like taking an NFL playbook to a Pee Wee Football team. We're talking about two totally different games played by people of completely different calibre.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that a good thing, to want your opponents to play 'correctly' and play hands that are dominated by you?

[/ QUOTE ]
When i'm only open raising with hands that are sure to dominate i'll let you know.

And playing 'correctly' means understanding they're behind but still getting the correct price to play a pot OOP even if they DO assing you a tight range of opening hands. If you're raising lots of hands, you might be a favorite to win the hand with position against say just the big blind, but probably not a 3.5-1 favorite (the minimum odds he's getting to call, even bigger odds after blinds are introduced).

[uclabruinz]

I agree with Lloyd. It makes sense for Alan because he's a post-flop crusher. Where does he win most of his chips? By getting people to play with him post-flop. Heck, pot control is favorable for him because it limits the all-in move post-flop and keeps people playing poker with him.

We are not Alan, and we generally are not playing with deep stacks.

Here's some interesting thoughts from Howard Lederer about Alan:

Lederer on Goehring

[schavuit]

Sure, you would like a reraise preflop when you're holding AA. You however don't want 4 callers because you miniraised and everybody is getting a cheap shot to see a flop with 78s. I will usually call a miniraise on the big blind with any 2. Sometimes you might get a reraise, but a lot of times you will get many callers which you don't want. It's pretty hard to fold AA on a 782 flop, and with 5 people in the pot the chances of someone having a better hand is obviously a lot bigger.

And NO, it's not a good thing to allow your opponents to play 'correctly'. Let's say you probably have the better hand and preflop you have a bigger chance of winning the hand. Now it's not a bad thing if villain throws in more chips true. This is not a reason however, to offer him a +ev play by giving him great odds.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
A little while later Peter Costa opened in first position for 600 and everyone folded to Alan in the big blind and he called. The flop came 4h Jc Jh. They both checked. The turn was (4h Jc Jh) 9s. Alan bet 800, about half the pot and Peter called. The river was (4h Jc Jh 9s) 4c. Alan again bet about half the pot, 1500. Peter thought about it for a while and then he folded the AA face up! Alan then turned over KK!!!! Wow, wow. How did he do that? He didn't double Peter up before the flop, and then he managed to beat the AA without improving or risking a lot of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. File this under Peter Costa's misplayed hands file, not the Alan goehring's a genius file.