KK on A high board

slik · #1 04-04-2006, 02:40 AM

Big blind has LAG stats but is reasonable postflop (not blindly aggressive or anything). MP and button are unknown. Several questions to this hand. I think my flop play is okay, but I am not sure about turn and river. Perhaps even flop is iffy. Advice on flop, turn, and river appreciated.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP calls, Button folds.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

True · #2 04-04-2006, 02:52 AM

Bet the flop for sure, I suppose you aren't really worried that people are going to improve to beat you if they don't already, but they can hit runner runner cards or will often have 2 outs and we don't really want to make it easy for them.

The turn brings pairs and gutshots to people so I think you need to bet here, Q-x will often just check behind to get cheaply to showdown and I don't think this board is really bluff inducing with the preflop action.

There were no draws on the flop, so the villain (MP will either have Q-x, A-x, 5-x or 7-x, PP (he was a poster so range is lot larger than usual and he is unknown) I suppose he could have TJ / KJ / KT but this is a very small part of his range and you cant expect him to bluff these (wont fold anything better etc). If we check this river I think villain will often bet when ahead and check when behind although you have the added benefit of him checking behind with better hands sometimes.

I think turn bet and river bet are mandatory, the flop is probably pivotal and doesn't really change the hand that much. By checking here you induce weaker calldowns and give opponents a chance to make a second best hand.

True

Kwaz · #3 04-04-2006, 03:01 AM

Bet the flop. Hand plays differently after that.

IMO. The only reason to check the flop is if you are check/folding.

slik · #4 04-04-2006, 03:11 AM

I was considering check folding the flop, depending on how action went... at least I wanted to have odds to hit my 2 outer, if in fact I was behind.

slik · #5 04-04-2006, 03:17 AM

I bet out the turn for value, and to protect my hand if ahead, but still feared an ace. Good point on the river. I am clearly not check folding, so perhaps bet folding is the way to go there. But in general I am surprised how two people already advocate betting out the flop. Am I the only one that thinks checking flop is good?

Kwaz · #6 04-04-2006, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that thinks checking flop is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO. The flop is too dry and 12:1 too good not to bet.

Nick C · #7 04-04-2006, 04:24 AM

On the flop, I'm anticipating that this hand quite likely won't make it to showdown, but I like a bet.

onnel · #8 04-04-2006, 06:17 AM

A newbie question:

when my opponents are super passive (basically never raising) and I have KK when a A flops, if i bet, how can I tell if someone has an A?

If I check and one of these opponents bets, I *know* he has an A and I can get out (unless the suggestion would really be to stick it out for the 2 outs), but if I bet the flop they will simply call and I have done nothing but increase the pot of them (or rarely for me if a third K comes without something better beating it).

Please advise, as I find myself in this situation very often.

Onnel

P.S. also, why not bet the river? Do we really think we have less than 50% pot odds?

livinitup0 · #9 04-04-2006, 08:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet out the turn for value, and to protect my hand if ahead, but still feared an ace. Good point on the river. I am clearly not check folding, so perhaps bet folding is the way to go there. But in general I am surprised how two people already advocate betting out the flop. Am I the only one that thinks checking flop is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

Nick C · #10 04-04-2006, 10:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A newbie question:

when my opponents are super passive (basically never raising) and I have KK when a A flops, if i bet, how can I tell if someone has an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't.

[ QUOTE ]
If I check and one of these opponents bets, I *know* he has an A and I can get out (unless the suggestion would really be to stick it out for the 2 outs), but if I bet the flop they will simply call and I have done nothing but increase the pot of them (or rarely for me if a third K comes without something better beating it).

Please advise, as I find myself in this situation very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponents are passive enough that if you check this flop and someone bets you really know the bettor has an ace, then you should probably check.

My opponents generally aren't that reliably passive, though.