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#1
04-02-2006, 12:21 AM
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All beingness
Lets talk about something that I heard tossed around quite a bit, the always beingness of god. A typical reasonable reason for god goes something like.
1. Every thing that exists has cause. 2. The universe exists. 3. The universe has a cause. 4. That cause is God. 1, 2, and 3 are logical enough. And the implied number 5 is what caused God, and the response is God always was. My question is can god himself even know about his all beigness. There is always a limit on what we can know for certain, due to the nature of knowledge. God cannot make the claim of all beingness, as it is outside of his abilty to know. Any thoughts on what makes god able to know about his all beingness? He may have existed for a really long time, before he created the universe. But there is no way to for God to know weather there was a "time" before he existed. 1. All complex systems are created by lesser complex entities. 2. God is the ultimate complex system 3. Lesser complex systems must have been used to create God. 4. If god is to be given any form, or complexity he must not have always been. 
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#2
04-02-2006, 01:11 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
1. Every thing that exists has cause. 2. The universe exists. 3. The universe has a cause. 4. That cause is God. [/ QUOTE ] This is where I don't necesarilly agree. Even though I don't discount the possibility of a creator to the universe, if the implication (according to you) is that God always was, then proposition #1 (everything has a cause) is already false. Saying that God is an exception to this chain of logic doens't really cut it, IMO.
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#3
04-02-2006, 05:02 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 1. Every thing that exists has cause. 2. The universe exists. 3. The universe has a cause. 4. That cause is God. [/ QUOTE ] This is where I don't necesarilly agree. Even though I don't discount the possibility of a creator to the universe, if the implication (according to you) is that God always was, then proposition #1 (everything has a cause) is already false. Saying that God is an exception to this chain of logic doens't really cut it, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed - I dont understand how anyone can find this argument compelling.
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#4
04-02-2006, 05:40 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed - I dont understand how anyone can find this argument compelling. [/ QUOTE ] Its compelling only if you leave "God" completely undefined or defined simply as an unknown cause. I think a lot of people don't realize this because when they think "God" they assume the nature of what their religion says about it.
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#5
04-02-2006, 06:09 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
1. All complex systems are created by lesser complex entities. 2. God is the ultimate complex system 3. Lesser complex systems must have been used to create God. 4. If god is to be given any form, or complexity he must not have always been. [/ QUOTE ] This is where I don't completely agree. "All complex systems are created by lesser complex entities." No, complex systems as we know them are made from far more complex entities. Machines are made by the most complex machine, the mind. So it's reasonable to believe that A far more complex entity created the mind.
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#6
04-02-2006, 06:15 AM
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Re: All beingness
That's not the Kalam argument.
It is everything that has begun to exist has had a cause. This is perfectly testable/verifyable as opposed to the posted no.1 "Everything that exists has a cause" that can't be proven. Because science is very strongly revealling the universe is finite we are compelled to think on a cause. 0+0=0 This equation shows me that if there were ever a time when there was complete nothingness then there would still be nothingness. I am convinced that something has always existed and is in nature eternal. Does that cut it Go Blue?
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#7
04-02-2006, 06:43 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
0+0=0 This equation shows me that if there were ever a time when there was complete nothingness then there would still be nothingness. [/ QUOTE ] That's more the pity, because the nighmare of evil may never end in that case.
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#8
04-02-2006, 07:13 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
0+0=0 This equation shows me that if there were ever a time when there was complete nothingness then there would still be nothingness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] That's more the pity, because the nighmare of evil may never end in that case. [/ QUOTE ] I do like Godboy's equation. Perhaps beauty, love, and tranquility will someday overcome your nightmare of evil.
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#9
04-02-2006, 07:32 AM
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Re: All beingness
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 0+0=0 This equation shows me that if there were ever a time when there was complete nothingness then there would still be nothingness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] That's more the pity, because the nighmare of evil may never end in that case. [/ QUOTE ] I do like Godboy's equation. Perhaps beauty, love, and tranquility will someday overcome your nightmare of evil. [/ QUOTE ] At least, I know and accept that they are not now. I don't think we are there yet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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