Nut flush draw gets there - large pot

qwnu · #1 03-26-2006, 06:36 PM

Feel free to criticize play on all streets, but my main concern in this hand was whether to raise on the river. The board is paired, there's a straight-flush possible, I think I wanted to knock those other two guys out, but I hesitated on that raise button...

Follow up question: assuming you raise the river, do you fold to a 3-bet?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero ???

Gib · #2 03-26-2006, 06:39 PM

Good play until the turn,
3bet this turn without hesitating.

milesdyson · #3 03-26-2006, 06:41 PM

damn the turn is disgusting. crazy stuff.

do you understand why its pretty dumb to 3-bet the flop with a very weak top pair w/ a flush draw and not 3-bet the turn with the nuts? (gtfo if you say omg this isnt the nuts)

then on the river, you ask if you're folding to a 3-bet.

by that time the pot size will be ever closer to infinity. so of course you fold the river for the last bet with the nut flush. the board is paired!

bennyhana · #4 03-26-2006, 06:44 PM

save the micros.

borges · #5 03-26-2006, 07:13 PM

Is this what is known as "tough love"????

Sqwrlking · #6 03-26-2006, 07:43 PM

Raise the turn. They've already called once, they aren't folding for two more bets. UTG+2 might even cap it! You're losing a ton of value by just calling here. You have the best possible hand, you need to get as many bets into the pot as possible.

Why do you want to force out the two players on the river? Nobody is folding a hand that beats you. Any full house or straight-flush is coming along. This is flawed thinking. Going for overcalls here doesn't have to be bad play. If SB and BB have weak made hands, they might call a single bet, but probably not two. The river didn't complete any draws, so most likely they are folding. Given the way UTG+2 played this hand, he either has a lower flush than you, or a strong made hand. He'd probably raise AA or TT preflop, but maybe call 99. He could therefore have a full house now, but it's not too likely. Since you only called the turn, it's very hard to put him on a hand here. If he capped the turn and led here, I think going for overcalls would be the best play. The way the hand is now, it's hard to say.

Small summary:
- You have the (near)nuts on the turn. BB and SB aren't folding, so reraise and hope UTG+2 caps.
- Don't worry about straight-flushes. They come up so infrequently you shouldn't bother. If the river was heads-up and you played at a site that permits endless raising, it's another matter. Here, your only concern is a full house, which I find unlikely.
- On the river, you cannot force anyone that beats you out. Focus on getting the most money into the pot.
- Your style seems weak. Don't think there are monsters under the bed always. You have a very strong hand, and you have to play these hands very aggressivly to get the maximum value. Play timid with marginal hands, but not with a monster.
- Why aren't you raising the turn again?
- Read Small Stakes Hold'em!

qwnu · #7 03-26-2006, 08:13 PM

Ok, so apparently my main concern was incorrect, and should have been the turn. Fair enough.

[ QUOTE ]
damn the turn is disgusting. crazy stuff.

do you understand why its pretty dumb to 3-bet the flop with a very weak top pair w/ a flush draw and not 3-bet the turn with the nuts? (gtfo if you say omg this isnt the nuts)

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess maybe I don't. What am I trying to accomplish by 3-betting the turn? Do I want the blinds to fold, increasing the chances that I'll eventually win this already-large pot? Or do I want them to call, dumping even more money into the pot that I will almost certainly win?

Being this aggressive on the flop is not something I would always do, but I guess my thinking was that my flush would be better disguised if it came. On the flop, I'm saying, "I'm 3-betting, so if you're drawing for that flush, you're going to have to pay for it." Then when the flush card comes on the turn, I slow down when raised, acting scared and inviting the blinds to stay in. I take it you think I should stop the deception at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
then on the river, you ask if you're folding to a 3-bet.

by that time the pot size will be ever closer to infinity. so of course you fold the river for the last bet with the nut flush. the board is paired!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well I'm not folding, but I wouldn't be real enthusiastic that I was taking it down, either. When he check-raises the flop, I think maybe he's flopped a set. When he then check-raises the turn, I think he might have a flush, but that would mean he had check-raised the flop with a non-nut flush draw without top pair. When the board pairs and he bets into me, I can again convince myself that he flopped a set, since I'm a huge wuss, especially on the river.

Results: I did overcome my wussiness and raise, both blinds folded, and he called, showing 7c8c, meaning he check-raised the flop with an OESF draw.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I appreciate the fact that y'all are apparently waiting to pounce on retarded monkeys like myself. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Wetdog · #8 03-26-2006, 08:25 PM

[grunch]
3 bet the turn. Fear of a straight flush is MUBS. Get the cash in there.

Call the river. QA, QT and Q9 would beat you. Without reads I don't know what to expect to see here. Probably KJ from UTG+2. SB raised preflop and then went along quietly, so who knows about him.

ni han

[/grunch]

edited to show grunch tags so I don't look like a gigger idiot than I am

qwnu · #9 03-26-2006, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're losing a ton of value by just calling here. You have the best possible hand, you need to get as many bets into the pot as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I think this is what I need hammered in.

[ QUOTE ]
Going for overcalls here doesn't have to be bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sort of what I was thinking (although less articulately) when I hesitated before clicking "Raise". And also why I wanted to post it. Thx again.

Sqwrlking · #10 03-26-2006, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I guess maybe I don't. What am I trying to accomplish by 3-betting the turn? Do I want the blinds to fold, increasing the chances that I'll eventually win this already-large pot? Or do I want them to call, dumping even more money into the pot that I will almost certainly win?

[/ QUOTE ]
You want them to dump even more money into the pot that you will almost certainly win. Since it looks like they are drawing, though very likely drawing dead, leech as much as you can from them. They aren't folding.

[ QUOTE ]
Being this aggressive on the flop is not something I would always do, but I guess my thinking was that my flush would be better disguised if it came. On the flop, I'm saying, "I'm 3-betting, so if you're drawing for that flush, you're going to have to pay for it." Then when the flush card comes on the turn, I slow down when raised, acting scared and inviting the blinds to stay in. I take it you think I should stop the deception at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
The "charging the flush-draws" concept is flawed. With 4 people into the pot, you want the flop capped with a strong flushdraw. Since you'll hit your flush 35% of the time by the river, you'll win more than your fair share in this pot (25%). So you gain from every bet that goes into the pot, even if you don't have a flush yet. Again, the SB and BB aren't folding the turn after already calling a bet, so go ahead and reraise it. Deception here is insane, since you are losing so much value by doing it. You're likely losing 6 BB's here, tons of bets!

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, well I'm not folding, but I wouldn't be real enthusiastic that I was taking it down, either. When he check-raises the flop, I think maybe he's flopped a set. When he then check-raises the turn, I think he might have a flush, but that would mean he had check-raised the flop with a non-nut flush draw without top pair. When the board pairs and he bets into me, I can again convince myself that he flopped a set, since I'm a huge wuss, especially on the river.

Results: I did overcome my wussiness and raise, both blinds folded, and he called, showing 7c8c, meaning he check-raised the flop with an OESF draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were so sure that the villain had a flopped set, why did you raise the river? Going for overcalls isn't a bad play. The SB and BB might call a single bet, but probably not two. If villain really has a full house, he'll raise again, and you have to call. Thus you lose 3 bets if you raise, and he has you beat. If he doesn't have you beat, he'll call or he might even fold if he's betting a busted draw(which is very unlikely btw). Thus you gain a single bet when you are ahead. By calling, one of the blinds will very likely call, maybe both. Thus you gain one of two bets by calling, but lose only a single bet if you are behind. Calling gives you the same or better value when you are ahead, and minimizes your losses when you are behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, thanks for the replies. I appreciate the fact that y'all are apparently waiting to pounce on retarded monkeys like myself. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you are jokingly saying this, but please don't take our responses as anything hostile. You didn't play this hand well, and we're all very eager to tell you that is all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] A closing question: Can you see how villain played this hand well?