2-7 draw or pat?

[willie24]

10/20 2-7 triple draw online.

i am a beginner at this game- i played my first hand last week. i am a very experienced holdem and stud player but i have never played any sort of draw poker seriously- so feel free to explain even elementary points.

4 handed, hero is BB

CO raises, button calls, SB calls, hero calls in BB with k8754.

sb takes 2, hero takes 1 (?), CO takes 2, button takes 2.

hero draws 87543. SB checks, hero bets, all 3 call.

sb draws 1, hero...draw or stand pat?

(Button draws loosely on all streets even when 2 cards behind raiser. CO is fairly loose but likes to stand pat early if he can, and then check river. SB is very tight aggressive. both CO and button consider me very LAG in early rounds)

thanks for your help

[akebono]

I've never played above 2/4 so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I'm pat on the second draw and betting. If the TAG is pat for the third draw, I consider breaking or just calling if he bets. If TAG takes a card on the third draw, then I bet the river.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

predraw i would take two cards rather than one. as played you have to stand pat and hope for hte best; you can only improve by drawing a deuce, so theres really no point.

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
you can only improve by drawing a deuce, so theres really no point.

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel stupid for completely missing that a 6 was a straight.
say i had 87542 instead. draw or stand pat on the 2nd draw?

[MarkGritter]

You should never (hardly ever) break 87543. You are drawing for a deuce and a deuce only. If your opponent has you beat, he is almost certain to have a deuce in his hand. (Only 86543 beats you and doesn't have a deuce.) In a four-way pot you may often be drawing competely dead.

The advantage of breaking 87543 is that you will probably not make any 1-bet mistakes on the end. But, you might potentially be making a bigger mistake by breaking the best hand, particularly at the higher levels. If you plan to call and break, fold instead.

With four players in the pot I draw three to 754 rather than one to 8754. It makes the play of the hand significantly easier--- you need to be drawing more smoothly out of position.

[InWithTheBest]

In 2-7 its very important to always draw from the bottom up. This becomes even more important OOP. predraw this is a clear fold IMO, esp because you describe yourself as a beginner. A more experienced player who is less likely to make mistakes on further streets may jusify calling and drawing 2 here but i fold this all day. Calling and drawing 1 against is pretty bad because youve turned over your hand to anyone with experience in this game. You need to either 3 bet and represent a better draw or fold. a 3 bet is okay if there are less players but with 3 callers already you gotta muck here.
If i was in this pot i would put you on exactly your hand or slightly worse after the first draw and would be able to play perfectly against you the rest of the way. As gritter said, when you make 87543 breaking is an awful idea. You either take this hand to the end or fold. If you break this hand in a pot with 3 players are more you often have 2 outs at best but usually 1 or none. One thing working to your advantage is you have 3 players drawing against you which is going to make for a lot of dead cards. Its a lot harder to make a better hand than yours in this pot than if you were in a HU pot.. Also because you didnt get raised its almost impossible for you to not have the best hand after the first unless someone stupidly decided to slowplay a better hand. Id stand pat and hope to survive to the 3rd draw where you are in a profitable situation with everyone drawing against you.

[akebono]

[ QUOTE ]
You should never (hardly ever) break 87543. You are drawing for a deuce and a deuce only. If your opponent has you beat, he is almost certain to have a deuce in his hand. (Only 86543 beats you and doesn't have a deuce.) In a four-way pot you may often be drawing competely dead.

The advantage of breaking 87543 is that you will probably not make any 1-bet mistakes on the end. But, you might potentially be making a bigger mistake by breaking the best hand, particularly at the higher levels. If you plan to call and break, fold instead.

With four players in the pot I draw three to 754 rather than one to 8754. It makes the play of the hand significantly easier--- you need to be drawing more smoothly out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that breaking 87543 should hardly ever be done and the hand plays much easier if drawing 754. I guess what I should have said is that, as played, I think we're most likely stuck with our rough 8 and would love to eliminate any players behind and pray that SB bricks. Rereading OP though, I guess this isn't likely since CO and button may not fold to a bet from a LAG.

I'm just wondering if there is a best way to recover from our preflop error. If TAG bets after drawing one on the third, can we fold? If TAG checks after drawing one, do we continue to represent a very strong pat hand, or are we worried enough about a check-raise to hope to check it down for a cheap showdown?

I guess my default behavior once I've decided to stand pat is to put pressure on everyone else to fold. I think a rough 8 has some showdown value, but it's gonna be really painful if it's still multiway at the river.

It's been a while since I played though, and as I said, my TD thinking is of very limited value. I'd like to improve it though and get back on UB after their whole software remodel/cashout issue is completely stable.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
In 2-7 its very important to always draw from the bottom up. This becomes even more important OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is horrible advice from the BB if they are calling just one bet, this is a clear call - a 2 card draw with the holdings 7 and below is fantastic from the BB.

With that said, the hero has to drop the 8.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Sooner]

I agree that with 2 callers in front this is an easy call.

Best play would be to draw 2 to a 754 and see what happens from there. You most likely fold if you don't hit a 2. In a 4 way pot it is *very* hard to chase anyone out, and a 87 is like playing top pair with a bad kicker in holdem. Most of the time you end up putting in a lot of bets only to barely lose. I don't want to bother to do the math, but an 87 against 3 people each drawing 1 card twice (assuming they improve on the first draw) is surely an underdog, unless your opponents are crazy and draw to 9's.

[Jackal69]

if you draw two here you need to hit 23 or 26 to improve on your 87 draw, which given the action is vitrually impossible as at least a couple of deuces will be out (plus your opponents are all drawing 2 anyway). When you hit the three you should play agressively but be prepared to dump it later on if you are completely convinced its no longer good.