Value betting the river

The Bride · #1 03-19-2006, 05:40 PM

I’m trying to fix a leak in my game, which I think is not value betting the river often enough. Here are a couple of examples where I think I should have bet.

The villains in both hands were donkeys, and I think I clearly should have bet. But I’m also interested to know what the correct line would be against a good player – are these also clear value bets in those cases?

What about if you get check-raised by a good player on the river – would you pay it off, or fold?

And what about if you get check-raised by a donkey?

I think I’ve started to get too gun shy on the river, and this resides in part, because I’m unsure of how to deal with check-raises. A number of times I’ve called a check-raise from a donkey, only to be left scratching my head at what they showdown (total bluffs). However, I may be overestimating how often this actually happens, as when it does happen it makes a big impression.

So basically, I don’t know how to handle river checkraises from donkeys, I don’t know how to handle river checkraises from good players, and its making me too reluctant to value bet the river. Sorry this is a bit long, but I’d appreciate any advice you guys have.

Hand 1

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.66 BB

Hand 2

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Duerig · #2 03-19-2006, 05:44 PM

I don't really get your play on these hands. In hand 1 I bet the turn. If this turn gets checked through, it is a minor disaster. In hand 2 bet the flop and go from there.

Leader · #3 03-19-2006, 06:17 PM

Both these hands are pretty sucky. Why are you checking the turn in hand 1? Your hand just got better. You have a ton of equity here, bet it. Bet the river too. Hand 3 is really bad FPS IMO. Just bet until they tell you you're beat. I hate the flop check. I'm not checking the river either.

MrWookie · #4 03-19-2006, 06:26 PM

Value betting the river is a huge leak for a lot of new-ish (and veteran, too, really) players, so I'm glad you're looking at it. I agree w/ Leader's analysis.

The Bride · #5 03-19-2006, 08:48 PM

Hand 1, I'm not sure why I didn't bet the turn. Probably paralysed by the straight possibility.

Hand 2, I thought this was pretty standard OOP against a bad player - wait till the turn to get the checkraise in? Perhaps not. Anyway, you say wait until they tell you that you're beat, but what then? Say in hand 2 I get checkraised on the river, would you fold?

milesdyson · #6 03-19-2006, 08:50 PM

dude you 3-bet preflop and check called the flop. then you checked the turn. wtf?

giant sand · #7 03-19-2006, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Say in hand 2 I get checkraised on the river, would you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting decision. I'm sure a leak of mine is not folding to a raise on the River (only 1.7% of my hands are folded on the river). I guess it's read dependant, but against a neutral player I would say folding is probably better than calling.

Leader · #8 03-19-2006, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, I thought this was pretty standard OOP against a bad player - wait till the turn to get the checkraise in? Perhaps not. Anyway, you say wait until they tell you that you're beat, but what then? Say in hand 2 I get checkraised on the river, would you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is what I would almost always do in hand two.

Bet/3-bet the flop/call a cap

lead the turn no matter what

If he raises call and c/c the river

If he calls, lead any river. An A is probably the only river I'd serious consider folding to a raise.

The Bride · #9 03-19-2006, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dude you 3-bet preflop and check called the flop. then you checked the turn. wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] He was very aggro, so this seemed a good way to get him to go too far with overcards/small pockets.

MrWookie · #10 03-19-2006, 09:28 PM

What about making him go too far with dumb raises instead of dumb bets?