This IS NOT a starting hand chart.

[Skuzzy]

Despite the title, this is a starting hand chart. It is however MY starting hand chart and therefore SHOULD NOT BE USED BY ANYONE starting out in NL. In fact its less of a starting hand chart and more of a spreadsheet of default preflop plays. Sitiuations which require an alternative play to the one shown in the chart abound in the SSNL games online.

I'm posting this because I want to generate a decent Full ring preflop discussion with something tangible to refer to. (Honestly - I'm after some free advice) For some, my hand selection may be too tight, for others too loose, and occasionally (I hope not drasticaly) I may be completely messing up in my hand selection due to fundamental misundertandings of certain concepts or hangovers from my limit play. This is a first draft of the chart too and therefore may contain errors.

This chart format was adapted from one commonly referred to in SH (6max) limit threads. Being full ring it is a bit cumbersome. There are two versions one in Excel (.xls) format and one image (.gif) for those without excel

I understand the fluid nature of NL in terms of player types, relative position and image can have a huge impact on the hands we choose to play, but this chart was started to provide some basis for a relatively new player to learn the game from. It assumes the game type is loose passive (30/4 average stats) and no accont is taken of extreme player types such as rocks and maniacs who will require you fold more hands and play more hands respectively.

Blind play is not accounted for. Those hands played in stealing positions need to be reconsidered in light of either uber loose blinds or good blind defence.


Any and all input is welcome and highly saught after. Thanks

The spreadsheet version

The image file

PS. If nothing else, you can use this chart to read my preflop play if you find me in your game [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ...but then again I kick ass post flop [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Hattifnatt]

Nice job!

[Ghazban]

A few general remarks:

1) stack sizes matter a lot all the time yet the only thing close to a stack size mention is the 5-10 rule. If I'm on the button with 500BB and a total postflop idiot with 500BB is in the CO, I'm playing almost any two cards if he comes into the pot. If the implication in the chart is that everyone involved has roughly a 100BB stack, then I retract this criticism.

2) pairs are good, don't fold them in EP. You're limping 55 but not 22? Why? You pretty much need a set with either one and running into a bigger set is not a concern in these games (small stakes 100BB max buyin games).

3) Overall, I think a chart like this will hurt your NL development more than help it. Unlike full-ring limit, almost every hand is situation-dependent. Any playable hand can be raised under the correct conditions and any hand you normally raise/reraise could be limped/called in certain circumstances. A better chart would be one that incorporates game conditions and player reads instead of hole cards but I think that would be much much harder to make.

[Skuzzy]

1) I agree. Game type is assumed (though not stated) 100BB capped buyin with effective stack sizes at that level.

2) This was advice given in another thread. I took it to heart. Maybe time for a re-think.

3)The chart was intended to force me to consider why I play some hands and not others. Like anyone starting out, I had to learn the hard way by just doing. I'm now hoping to discover what I mis-learned (like playing small pairs that you mentioned)

Really, I just thought a chart (bad or otherwise) would provide a good starting point for general preflop discussion. I need the help [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

2) pairs are good, don't fold them in EP. You're limping 55 but not 22? Why? You pretty much need a set with either one and running into a bigger set is not a concern in these games (small stakes 100BB max buyin games).

[/ QUOTE ]
Higher pairs are more likely to flop straight draws that have 6-10 outs against an overpair. Higher pairs are harder to counterfeit; it's annoying to snap off a bluff and then play the board. Higher pairs also do significantly better against other low pairs, low suited connectors, and Axs. These usually don't result in large pots, but these small pots (and rare set-over-set catastrophes) matter since low pairs are not tremendously profitable.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Overall, I think a chart like this will hurt your NL development more than help it. Unlike full-ring limit, almost every hand is situation-dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. It's nice when you can deviate from your normal strategy due to reads (I do this frequently), but you often don't have good reads. You should know what your default play is. This can be helpful for you at the table if you are prone to tilting, which can decrease your confidence in your judgement. Knowing your default plays can be helpful away from the table because you can analyze the weaknesses of your strategy, to see whether it would be profitable to reraise you with A2o, for example.

[MTBlue]

Focusing on postflop play will make your more money than wondering whether or not to fold 22 in early position. That said preflop play should be focused on taken advantage of errors postflop of others players.

Examples Villian 1 will go to the felt after calling a raise with any ace. Look to play AT and A9 and plan on getting all-in with them. Villain 2 overvalues small top pairs look to play 88 99 and TT more aggressively. Villain 3 believes that when you reraise you always have AK and will call off his stack with any pocket pair as long as an Ace or a King doesn't flop. Solution reraise AQ, JJ, TT. Villain 4 overvalues overpairs. Call raise up to 10% of stack with any pocket pair.

Look for what villains do poorly post flop and adjust your preflop strategy to that. Even Solid Villains can be taken advantage of b/c they fold too much preflop so you can attack their blinds with any to cards with the plan of check/folding if you don't hit two pair or better.

NL is much more situational dependent than the limit hand chart and implied odds matter much more i.e. hand charts are essentially worthless.

[Skuzzy]

I think everyone knows that charts aren't the same thing as winning poker. Even at limit holdem starting hands are a guide that won't make you a winner. They just keep you out of trouble.

This is the guidelines I have myself. I just stuck them in this chart and posted them here to see if I could get some feedback on my own choice of hands. As stated in my post above, it isn't a chart that anyone should use. And no one should expect to use it to win at NL poker. It's the base from which I operate, it's not the whole enchilada.

I still think new players need decent guidelines to avoid trouble from the outset. No one is born with an innate idea of which hands are playable at NL Holdem. You have to learn it, you then have to learn what to do with those hands.

I see players every day happily making plays much as you ascribe to your villains that could easily be avoided if they had some standards in their preflop play. i.e. Not playing any Ace, not playing many hands that likely make only top pair, understanding that a raise is often done for reasons other than having AK, understanding that many hands are played for set value devaluing overpair hands.
This basic knowledge comes from playing good cards and then seeing and beginning to understand why they are good hands. This in turn leads to strategies to exploit weaknesses and identifying your own weaknesses to avoid being exploited.

You cannot give a new player all the tools he needs before he plays a hand. You don't say to a new guitar student, we'll skip all the basic first position chords, major scales etc. and and move right on to finger picking and jazz improvisation, you won't need simple major chords to be a jazz player so learning them will only end up being essentialy worthless.

[BigBiceps]

missing some hands like 97s, 85s, 65s, 54s,

[BobboFitos]

This hurts my eyes to read, and not the way you should be attacking preflop decisions, although it can't hurt, I suppose.

[pokerjoker]

I'd play all pocket pairs.
reraising with AK whould probably not be standard for full ring IMO.
Playing SC's from late position is debatable but IMO generally a good idea.

Overall Good Guideline especially if used for a specific online poker room. there are no absolutes for pf play though and obviously this needs to vary based on game conditions.

I'll know to get out of your way if u ever push pf. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]