77 Coordinated Board

Jeff W · #1 03-13-2006, 11:40 PM

Villain is 37/19/1.4

Party Poker 20/40 (6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (4.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets.

The Bryce · #2 03-13-2006, 11:42 PM

Beats check / call.

TStoneMBD · #3 03-14-2006, 12:10 AM

whatever happened to your neverwin stragety thingy? i really hate 3betting these weak pairs out of position. i think it accomplishes nothing. all it really does it let him extract more value when he flops pairs and get away from Ax easier while semibluffing you on paint boards.

MarkD · #4 03-14-2006, 12:10 AM

Well, as my recent posts indicate you should take my advice with a grain of salt but I have to say that I would play this hand differently on every street.

Pre-flop:
We have disagreed on these medium pocket pairs before but I would not 3-bet here and prefer to just call. I know this player is LAG, but his pre-flop range compares favorably against 77 (I estimate that his PFR from UTG is about 16 if he raises overall 19% of the time). He's about a 52-54% favorite over us.

I know, you are raising for iniative, and to define your hand, and other good reasons but I would still prefer to just call here.

Flop:
Given your pre-flop play betting out here is totall fine. If I had just called pre-flop I would CR this flop.

Turn:
This is where I don't understand your line again. Getting raised would suck, but you have decent equity here. Surely enough to bet. You may get a hand containing an overcard diamond to fold (like the T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], that would be correct to call you based on the FTOP. I think I like a bet here much more than a check/call (or check/check as you got).

I really think you should bet here. I think this street is interesting but am firly in the betting camp atm.

River:
Given your previous action I am unsure if this bet is good or not. This hand seems weird to me and at the river I would most likely check and call but I am very eager to be convinced betting is correct (provided I can see some insight as to why).

Harv72b · #5 03-14-2006, 12:37 AM

I also don't like to 3-bet this preflop from the blind. Against a weak/tight player maybe, as he's more likely to give up overcards on the flop if you 3-bet, but I doubt this guy is going anywhere with a decent ace or even a better underpair.

I really don't think you're getting a worse hand to call/better hand to fold by betting this river more often than you would be getting a worse hand to bluff at you/better hand to check through by checking.

Grain of salt: I don't play as high as 20/40, so I might be a little off in my analysis.

Surf · #6 03-14-2006, 12:40 AM

Hey Jeff,

I call this preflop. I'm interested to hear your reasoning - i pretty much flatcall everything in the BB vs an utg raise and c/r favorable flops.

Given your line, i play postflop the same. I don't like betting the turn, it gives him a chance to make life miserable for us with a freeSD raise, or pure float. Checking takes that away from him, and forces him to invest 2BB if he wants a real shot at folding us. Once the turn checks through I bet the river too, but c/f is a close 2nd since his hand is either A-hi or a medium pair that is probably bigger than yours.

Surf

The Bryce · #7 03-14-2006, 12:45 AM

Even though I usually like over-representing my hand when I'm going to want to take a shot at most flops I think that the fact that he's raised UTG makes it better to just call and c/r in this case since we can really narrow down his range (which means that what we see on the flop will have a much much greater impact on our equity than if he was raising from a later position).

counterspell · #8 03-14-2006, 12:47 AM

unless you have a specific read that UTG will fail to make a continuation bet a lot of the time here, you should just be calling preflop and planning to c/r most flops.

3-betting preflop gets no more money in when you have the best of it, and taking control of the pot preflop OOP makes it harder to read villain's hand.

Jeff W · #9 03-14-2006, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
whatever happened to your neverwin stragety thingy? i really hate 3betting these weak pairs out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean dreamclown strategy. Yeah, 3-betting here is a mistake.

Perseus · #10 03-14-2006, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whatever happened to your neverwin stragety thingy? i really hate 3betting these weak pairs out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean dreamclown strategy. Yeah, 3-betting here is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-Betting here is not a mistake.

PeterRUS and Schnieds and some other posters had a great discussion about this once where Peter explained how three betting mid pairs from the BB against UTG raises is the superior strategy against most opponents.

I'll try to find it tomorrow. It is contianed within a 100 page SH guide someone put together. Does someone else have a link?

It basically says...three betting from BB is better because if he has a major pocket pair he will cap, and if he doesn't he either has a slightly better pocket pair or you are a coinflip.

If he has something like 99 he can easily get away from it on AJ2 type flops.

Peter backed up this point with stats from mid pocket pairs and he was basically doing better than anyone I had ever seen with those hands.

This is obviously an advanced strategy that most people couldn't perform with +EV, but saying you should not even think about 3-betting this from the BB is the real mistake, I think.