Check/Folding 2nd Nut 4-Flush on Turn

MrHoobris · #1 03-13-2006, 05:40 PM

Hi, I'm a long time lurker *hoping* to improve my game by posting some hands. I feel like the biggest problem in my game is making loose payoffs. Am I taking things too far?

TAG UTG: 24/17/2.5 over 1000+ hands A solid playing TAG who definitely seems to be a winner. Pretty sure he sees me as a standard TAG, probably mostly from mined hands as well.

LP Fish in CO: 60.5/2.3/1.3 over 60 hands, who will CC all sorts of hands, and from what I have seen has so far has only called down with top pair and bottom pair type hands. He is now low on money, with only $53.25 to begin the hand.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
TAG raises, Fish Coldcalls, 2 folds, Hero Calls

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.4SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, TAG bets, LP calls, Hero raises, TAG 3-bets, LP Caps, Hero calls, TAG calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9.2BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, TAG bets, LP calls, Hero folds

Comments on all streets appreciated.

gharp · #2 03-13-2006, 05:44 PM

I don't get this. Why would you call two cold on the flop and then fold when your flush came in?

I think TAG could easily have a set or AQ/KQ with no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] that he played fast b/c the board was suited. And stacking-off-fish has a pretty wide range too.

Anders · #3 03-13-2006, 05:48 PM

bet the turn!

shaodeee · #4 03-13-2006, 05:48 PM

I would bet the turn.

MrHoobris · #5 03-13-2006, 05:56 PM

My thinking was more along the lines that the fish, being low on chips, is betting this turn for sure. Also, the Ad is a very likely hand for the villain. If I bet, TAG is folding all hands except nut flush and QQ. At this point him having the Jd or Td without the Ad is highly unlikely, as he would not want to price out the fish on his non-nut draw on the flop.

Therefore, if I check, and TAG bets, the only hand that makes sense for him is the Ad and I can fold. If fish bets, I can try and trap him for an extra bet since I will be getting all the fish's money anyway since he is almost stacked.

Am I way overthinking this hand?

MrHoobris · #6 03-13-2006, 06:08 PM

The fish has so far played very passive, so I read his hand for a pretty decent hand, despite him only having $15 or so left.

And wouldn't a solid TAG with AK or AQ no diamond now check this flop to see how I react to the fishes expected bet, since my hand looks very much like a made baby flush or big flush draw?

As for calling the flop cap, but folding the turn, I thought the TAG defined his hand with his turn donk once the flush hit. He is not raising QxJd or QxTd UTG and I have the Kd. Also, why would he play a set that way, when its very likely he will have to now pay 2 bets for his draw? Adx just makes up such a huge portion of his range IMO.

Nick C · #7 03-13-2006, 06:18 PM

One difficulty here is that, since LP decided to start stacking off (or to abandon his slowplay) with his flop call/cap and all you got to do was cold-call, your hand isn't going to be so well-defined in the TAG's mind. He might bet, say, Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], thinking he may now have the best hand so the bet is for value and also he doesn't want to give a free card to a set.

That said, I do think you were probably beat.

Happydaz · #8 03-13-2006, 06:27 PM

This is a horrible, horrible fold.

Think of how you play this hand if you flop the flush without the ace and you're the tag. You cap the flop, of course, and when you're checked to on the turn you bet again because you figure the other players are often on a pair or other weird draws.

I can guarantee you if I'm the TAG in this hand I play it exactly the same with a flopped J or T-hi flush.

At any rate, back to your play ... why not check raise the turn? If you're 3-bet by the TAG and he hasn't gotten out of line, that's a pretty easy fold. But if he has a T or a J of diamonds, he's calling your c/r and calling a river bet as well.

Dave G. · #9 03-13-2006, 06:33 PM

Worst fold ever.

I would quit poker if I ever made a fold as awful as this.

MrHoobris · #10 03-13-2006, 06:35 PM

Yes, I overlooked that since it was only 5-handed the 3 combos of QxJd are possible and definitely need to be considered. I still believe this is the only hand he plays this way that I beat.

I still think that checking the turn is best though, since if i bet, my hand is so well defined as a big 4flush, and the TAG can play perfectly from there. And from what I had seen, this TAG was definitely solid enough to lay down any pair hand here if I donked into a nearly all-in player. I will be getting the fish's last $13 regardless of how I play the hand, and could induce an overcall from AA/KK/AQ if I just call the fish's bet.

To those who want to bet, is it with the intention of bet-folding to a raise from the TAG?