Trouble moving up (small stakes)

Artsemis · #1 01-06-2006, 04:04 PM

Okay, I've been playing .50/1 for about 6 months... started out losing, then started breaking even over a month period, and then finally started winning. I ended up netting $600 or so from 4-tabling .5/1 and have been consistently winning with losing sessions becoming rare. Total hands was around 26k.

So.. I decided to give 1/2 a go. The first day I dropped about $50, and then gained it back the following day. However last night I ended up losing $180 in just a few hours. I did have alot of suck-outs but I dont want to rant about that here, whether that was the cause of the downswing or not... I'll let you judge. I am just going to sort PT by amount lost last night and post a few hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (19.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 7d Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has Qc Qh (one pair, queens).
Button has Ac 9c (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins 22.50 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Tc Kd (two pair, tens and nines).
MP2 has 8s 8c (straight, ten high).
Outcome: MP2 wins 11.50 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (11.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button folds, UTG raises, Hero calls, MP3 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (19.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds, MP3 raises, UTG 3-bets, MP3 caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 27.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 5h 7h (three of a kind, sevens).
MP3 has 7d Qh (full house, sevens full of queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 27.75 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP3 calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Ts (two pair, tens and eights).
MP1 has 8d Ad (three of a kind, eights).
MP3 has 4d 7h (straight, ten high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 17.75 BB. 

(I know they both had me beat here, I feel more bad for MP1 as MP3 is the same guy that keeps sucking out. By the way, he has 100% vpip, literally, and he cracked about every hand I played against him)

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Td Qs (straight, queen high).
Button has 7c 4s (straight, nine high).
Outcome: SB wins 18.50 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Qs (one pair, aces).
MP3 has 7d 5s (straight, eight high).
CO has 2h 5h (straight, eight high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 7.12 BB. CO wins 7.12 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 folds.

River: (8.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jd Jh (two pair, jacks and eights).
BB has Qc Td (two pair, queens and eights).
Outcome: BB wins 10.50 BB. 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 5s Ac (one pair, fives).
UTG has 8s 4h (straight, six high).
Hero has 9d 9c (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: UTG wins 10.75 BB. 

That should be a good enough sample. The rest follow the same pattern and trend. I selected these completely based on my biggest net loss for the day and they are completely unbiased to make me look "innocent". I'm looking for advise (I know I played some of them poorly) or reassurance that much of it was a downswing from bad luck.

The problem was, I didn't want to leave one of the tables because it should have been a goldmine with two people having 90%+ vpip.

playersare · #2 01-06-2006, 04:11 PM

this should be posted in micro-limit, not Internet.

but if you can't tell from these HH about the relative skill of $1/2 players, then I don't know what to say.

jackdaniels · #3 01-06-2006, 04:12 PM

I didnt read the hands in your post (that should go in Micro Limits or Small Stakes or something).

However, you have to realize that there is an element of variance in this game which you are obviously familiar with (playing over 25k hands). When someone is 90% VPIP AND hitting cards, there is not much you can do but grin and accept it. If those guys NEVER won, they would stop playing all together.

Tough out the downswing, re-read some of your material to make sure you are still playing solid poker and get back in the game. What happened to you is likely a result of some bad luck combined with some bad lay (brought on by tilt/nervousness about stakes).

All in all, there is nothing wrong with dropping back to .50/1.00 for a few weeks to regain some cofidence.

GL.

Artsemis · #4 01-06-2006, 04:15 PM

Thanks. I think that's basically it... the nervousness about the stakes. $180 just seemed like a huge swing for someone used to .5/1.

Niediam · #5 01-06-2006, 04:20 PM

90BBs is hardly enough to even be considered a downswing...

Artsemis · #6 01-06-2006, 04:23 PM

Okay, I'm spoiled by party's .5/1 then =d I was just disappointed to run into this immediately after moving up :/ I'll give it awhile more but I want to replenish at .5/1

cjs · #7 01-06-2006, 04:26 PM

Try not staying married to your good hands preflop. When people are telling you your good preflop hand is beat get out. You will save yourself alot of bb's by folding when beat.

_Z_ · #8 01-06-2006, 04:28 PM

Post this in the Small Stakes forum (edit: actually Micro is better as other posters pointed out). You should also number your hands to help people respond.

There's nothing horribly wrong with your play in your hands. There's a few things that I think are errors, but nothing that's a big deal.

Hand 1 (QQ) - Looks fine. If you know Button to be passive, you should be slowing down after his flop cap and just check call from there.

Hand 2 (KTo) - Raising preflop would be OK. I'd slow down after the flop cap against anyone not known to be aggro.

Hand 3 (KTc) - I'd check the turn. It doesn't look like you are going to take this one down unimproved, and you often won't get value from your bet. On a more blanky club turn I'd bet, but the fact that the board pairs makes your outs a little dirtier, and increases the chances of someone raising the turn.

Hand 4 (KTs) - I think I can find a fold on the river, unless MP1 has been doing some nutty postflop things.

Hand 5 (AA) - I play it the same.

Hand 6 (AQo) - I can find a fold on the river after the CO calls. I like the river bet, there's not much reason why a 5 should be out there.

Hand 7 (JJ) - Nice. Good river bet.

Hand 8 (99) - Looks great.

Z

Eratosthenes · #9 01-06-2006, 06:21 PM

I only took a quick look at the hand histories and nothing sticks out as a big leak. Regardless of your play there are a few questions to ask before moving up:

1) Do you have the bankroll for the next level? 300-500 BB =$600-$1000 for 1/2.

2) Are you a winner at your current level? For me this means that I am a statistically significant winner and that I feel like I know what I'm doing.

3) Will you be comfortable at the next level? I think you are reporting that you are not comfortable with a fairly normal downswing.

I have moved up several times and I always do it by first single tabling the new level for a while. I start by single tabling the new level for an hour or so a day, while still playing my current level. This gets me comfortable with the new level with minimum risk. I just add tables when it feels right. (These days I can only single table for a few minutes. So I'm really two-tabling until I'm comfortable with the new level.)

Artsemis · #10 01-06-2006, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I only took a quick look at the hand histories and nothing sticks out as a big leak. Regardless of your play there are a few questions to ask before moving up:

1) Do you have the bankroll for the next level? 300-500 BB =$600-$1000 for 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Well, I did before this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm still about $900 now.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Are you a winner at your current level? For me this means that I am a statistically significant winner and that I feel like I know what I'm doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
2.8/100 at 26k+

[ QUOTE ]

3) Will you be comfortable at the next level? I think you are reporting that you are not comfortable with a fairly normal downswing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding. I'm going to build back up to $1200 I think at .5/1 and try again. I may even try switching to 6-max.

Thanks for the replies guys. It's greatly appreciated.