NL Game Theory Question

Number27 · #1 03-08-2006, 06:38 AM

This is probably a tired and rehashed topic on the board; but I'm new so I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me. I've been reading about a practice in high NL cash games that goes like this.

Both players have 100+BB's

Hero Raises with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain calls.

Flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]-4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero pot size bets, and villain pushes all-in.

Villain will push all-in 100% of the time with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7x7x, and 4x4x.

You have two of the the hands slightly beaten and are crushed by two, so theoretically you have -EV to call. You could also have top two here and be only a slight favorite against two of the hands while two crush you. Is there anyway to beat this strategy in a NL ring game?

Aaron_C · #2 03-08-2006, 07:20 AM

bet sizes to this point are incredibly important.
pot odds will play the biggest factor in the equation.

Aaron_C · #3 03-08-2006, 07:21 AM

also, any other possible hands?
AQ?

Number27 · #4 03-08-2006, 07:29 AM

If I understand the problem correctly you will never be layed odds by the pot. As for AQ, I'm assuming the villain will never push in with anything less than strong draws, sets, or two pair. But he will push in every time with any one of those hands. So even if you theoretically had top two pair you'd be 50-50 with his straight and flush draw, or possibly crushed by his set.

I know of at least one internet pro who has used this strategy with extreme profitability. He has had huge swings naturally; but his long term profitablity is huge because players see him push with draws where he's not a huge dog, and call him when he has either the draw or has them crushed. Also, he gives them extreme fold equity and most of them aren't happy about throwing four or five thousand in the pot where they're maybe a 60-40 favorite.

binions · #5 03-08-2006, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I understand the problem correctly you will never be layed odds by the pot. As for AQ, I'm assuming the villain will never push in with anything less than strong draws, sets, or two pair. But he will push in every time with any one of those hands. So even if you theoretically had top two pair you'd be 50-50 with his straight and flush draw, or possibly crushed by his set.

I know of at least one internet pro who has used this strategy with extreme profitability. He has had huge swings naturally; but his long term profitablity is huge because players see him push with draws where he's not a huge dog, and call him when he has either the draw or has them crushed. Also, he gives them extreme fold equity and most of them aren't happy about throwing four or five thousand in the pot where they're maybe a 60-40 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean SpiritRock?

Sounds like someone just read the Little Green Book.

fnord_too · #6 03-08-2006, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there anyway to beat this strategy in a NL ring game?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is his entire hand range, then fold here. On THIS HAND there is not way to "beat his strategy" just like there is no way to "beat a strategy" on a hand where you have KK preflop and villain has AA.

Your question really makes no sense since you did not describe a strategy at all, you described an isolated situation with a very specific hand range for villain.

fnord_too · #7 03-08-2006, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I know of at least one internet pro who has used this strategy with extreme profitability. He has had huge swings naturally; but his long term profitablity is huge because players see him push with draws where he's not a huge dog, and call him when he has either the draw or has them crushed. Also, he gives them extreme fold equity and most of them aren't happy about throwing four or five thousand in the pot where they're maybe a 60-40 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, SR does NOT only have a strong draw or made hand when he overbet pushes. Secondly, this hardly describes his strategy, just one tactic he uses. (I think a better description of his overall strategy is to make huge bluffs to make people call him lightly then destroy them with overbet value bets as foes do not adjust and go on tilt, this is very opponent specific. Of course, not only his opponents are prone to tilt...)

Number27 · #8 03-08-2006, 05:00 PM

Sure did. Obviously it's Parlahd(sp?) Friedman, I was just wondering if there were an effective way to prevent him from overbetting you with these hands.

Number27 · #9 03-08-2006, 05:04 PM

I apologize. The opponents strategy is overbetting the pot sometimes with strong draws, sometimes with sets, and occasionally on a pure bluff. Obviously you could just wait for the nuts before you play this particular opponent; but I was wondering if there were any other effective ways to counter this strategy.

fnord_too · #10 03-08-2006, 05:24 PM

The way to beat it is to call with hands that are +EV against his range. The tough bit is getting a good read on him to keep up with his changing range (KKF claims to be able to reaad SR well, and has had good success against him but...) word on the street (i.e. News, Views, Gossip forum) is that SR tilted off a lot (possibly $1M) early this year and took a haitus from poker, so perhaps KKF got a good read on SR when he (SR) was not playing his A game.

(SR = Spirit Rock = Mahatma = Zweig = some others = BOW in Phil Gordon's Book. KKF - KaneKungFu123 of these forums.)

Oh, here is one thread talking about SR's apparent skid.