Value bet or check behind Kings with rivered Ace?

[TimovieMan]

Poker Room – Limit .25/.50 – 8 players

Only about 30 hands played with both villains (so no stats), but seen them showdown enough to know this:

Villain 1 – Limpy McFish – plays any ace, any two suited and nearly any king as well, openlimps AKo on the button, will see showdown with any overcard (even if only king high), doesn’t bet trips, and calls down bottom pair on a 4-flush board.

Villain 2 – Tricky McFish – same preflop standards as Limpy (including openlimping with AK on the button, but raising decent pocket pairs), but very LAGgy postflop, especially on the river: he’ll bet air into a 4-flush (Clarkmeister anyone?), he’ll bluff-raise scare cards, but will also call down any ace high.


Pre-flop: hero is on the button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Tricky limps, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 3 folds, <font color="red">hero raises,</font> Limpy calls, BB folds, Tricky calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 SB – 4 players)
Limpy, Tricky and UTG+1 check, <font color="red">hero bets,</font> Limpy calls, Tricky calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 BB – 3 players)
Limpy and Tricky check, <font color="red">hero bets,</font> Limpy calls, Tricky calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 BB – 3 players)
Limpy and Tricky check, <font color="red">hero ???</font>


The river is one of the only three cards that scare me.
Neither of them have the spade flush, they would have donked the flop otherwise, AND shown aggression (especially Tricky). But since they’re seeing the river with me, they could have any spade, any board pair or small-medium pocket pair (no set), or any ace.

Limpy doesn’t scare me. If I bet, he’s going to call me, even if he has the ace. He won’t dare raise me (and if he does, it’s an easy fold).
The problem here is Tricky. If he has the ace, and I bet, he’s likely going to check-raise me. If he DOESN’T have the ace, he’s likely going to bluff-check-raise me, so I’ll have to call down.
Either way, I’m going to pay two for the showdown which I could get now for free…

So, do I (value) bet this, or do I simply check behind?

[ckj]

If you're going to be check-raised by the tricky player, than it's an easy check behind. It's difficult to gain value when you're going to be charged 2 bets, with a passive and a tricky player in the pot.

[Mitke]

Bet and call Tricky's raise - both have a pair they'll call with often enough and Tricky's tendency to spew will go a long way to compensate for the rare times you end up paying a legitimate raise.

[neurotiq]

Yes, bet this river.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
Tricky

[/ QUOTE ]
This was the first word I saw in the post and that alone tells me you should check behind.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tricky

[/ QUOTE ]
This was the first word I saw in the post and that alone tells me you should check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tricky McFish was the complete description I think and he's supposed to like bluffing a lot on scare cards, especially on the river.

Please can you be more specific in explaining your reasons for checking behind?

Are you worried he's been slowplaying a monster? OP doesn't seem to think that is the case.

Are you worried about an Ace, maybe the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

[rhayder]

Since you now have 2nd pair I would check behind.

With 2 other players it is likely that 1 of these has an ace. They have seen you bet .. so now they are probably waiting for you to bet so they can check raise.

I like check call better than bet fold here.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you now have 2nd pair I would check behind.

With 2 other players it is likely that 1 of these has an ace. They have seen you bet .. so now they are probably waiting for you to bet so they can check raise.

I like check call better than bet fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The probability of either or both of the Villains being dealt an ace preflop is 29%.

I haven't seen anything in their pre- and postflop actions that would make me believe that the probability of them holding an ace to be significantly higher here.

Then again I haven't done any estimation of how big a portion of their range is Ax hands.

According to OP's reads if Limpy has an Ace he won't charge us 2BB. Tricky will charge us two bets with an ace but will also donate us 2BB + get Limpy two donate 2BB sometimes when he does not.

[maverickai]

my grunch is... check. Furthermore, it's against 2 other players, not HU. Just think of the chances that tricky check raises you... it sucks isn't it. check for a free showdown, so you won't spew on that last street. Based on your analysis of the villians, high % they might be holding an ace.

[maverickai]

[ QUOTE ]

he’ll bet air into a 4-flush (Clarkmeister anyone?)


[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister is not betting with air. It is betting, OOP, with a made hand like top pair.