QQ out of position on the turn

[mockturtle]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $191
UTG+1: $68.95
CO: $400.50
Button: $227.65
SB: $36
Hero: $232.60

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, CO folds, Button calls $2, SB calls $1, <font color="cc3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $10, Button calls $10, SB folds.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($46, 3 players)
<font color="cc3333">Hero bets $40</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button calls $40.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($126, 2 players)
<font color="cc3333">Hero is all-in $180.6</font>, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $180.6 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $126


thoughts?

[AllIn3High]

Betting $80-$90 on the turn and calling a push / getting the rest in on the river is probably better. Greater chance of stacking worse hands.

Also, you should cut off the action from after you go all-in on the turn to get unbiased responses.

This reminds me all too much of a hand from High Stakes Poker seen here.

In that hand the "hero" checked turn. I am not sure if this was for pot control or to induce a bluff. This board is a little different and has more draws so I think betting is a must unless you have a read that villian is a super agro maniac who will be turn if checked to in which case you go for c/r all in. Risky move though, since if he takes a free card you may be in a world of hurt on the river.

I think I would go for a 2/3 to 3/4 PSB on turn although shoving works well too as it may be seen as some kind of drawing hand.

[doubledouble]

I'm just learning no limit, so my logic might be flawed, but here is my read on the situation.

That was a very strong call on the flop by the button. In the $200 buy-in games I see at Party, you rarely see a cold call like that with a drawing hand. More likely, the caller has a big hand and is planning to push you in on the turn. I don't see any way that you make money with a $180 turn bet. If your objective is to make the button fold, you can do it for a lot less money and also protect your bankroll in the event that you are beaten by a big hand. Let's say the button does have you beaten. Bet $60 to find out. If he is on a draw, the pot odds are not right for him to call. If he pops you, then you get out of the hand with $120 of your stack still left.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just learning no limit, so my logic might be flawed, but here is my read on the situation.

That was a very strong call on the flop by the button. In the $200 buy-in games I see at Party, you rarely see a cold call like that with a drawing hand. More likely, the caller has a big hand and is planning to push you in on the turn. I don't see any way that you make money with a $180 turn bet. If your objective is to make the button fold, you can do it for a lot less money and also protect your bankroll in the event that you are beaten by a big hand. Let's say the button does have you beaten. Bet $60 to find out. If he is on a draw, the pot odds are not right for him to call. If he pops you, then you get out of the hand with $120 of your stack still left.

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man wtf is this ughghughghg he calls your flop bet does not mean you are automatically beat. you are ahead here a TON. the question is how to get it in now.

bet 90 call a push. going for the c/r all in on turn isnt good with flush draw on flop

man wtf is all this about betting half pot on turn and folding

[mockturtle]

my thoughts on the hand:

first off, the pot is $126 with effective stacks of $177. i'm out of position. i raised out of the bb after four limpers, a play that is often interpreted as an attempt to steal dead money. i continuation bet the pot on the flop (something i, personally, do nearly every single time in general and with this flop i would have bet anything i'd raised with) and am called. i can't expect his call to be particularly fear inspiring. if i was in his situation, i'd probably call with any hit against someone i felt would make a play in this situation. what i personally don't like is the following cards are terrible on the river: A, 7, 8, 3. if i pot it, i'm definitely not folding on the river. if he has a hand like 76, calling my pot size bet and folding a miss on the river is a marginally +ev play for him (and i do mean marginal). if it's marginal for the pot, i definitely don't want to bet 90 and get a call, do i? because really, assuming he rolls me on the river, he's making a good play with the pair/open enders and he's not doing too bad with the a8 either. on the other hand, if i all-in, as i did, and he calls with 76 (not particularly unreasonable expectation or even a bad play of his if he thinks i'm a tiny bit crazy) he's now giving me a decent amount of ev. nevertheless, if he flops a hand that's going to roll me in a pot where i make it 14 pre and flop safe, well i'm just happier to get it in with outs because i'm not folding anyway. lastly, making this play with the qqs and the kks and the aas here covers me, game theoretically, for when i make this play with superdraws.

ive been thinking a lot about situations recently where you're on the turn, out of position, facing a pot that's half to 2/3 of the effective stacks remaining. im gonna go ahead and back up my play and say i like my all-in here :0

[mockturtle]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting $80-$90 on the turn and calling a push / getting the rest in on the river is probably better. Greater chance of stacking worse hands.

Also, you should cut off the action from after you go all-in on the turn to get unbiased responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive lurked these forums for a while, and found it immensely and neverendingly irritating to read a hand, read some discussion, and find the op had yet to post the results

[doubledouble]

I don't think you comprehended what I wrote. You don't have a sure winner or a sure loser. The way I see it, if you just push the $180 in on the turn, you most likely get called only if you have a sure loss. To totally ignore the strength of a $40 cold call in that game will cost you your bankroll many times. Maybe you have that problem. A lot of players do. I like them.

[mike0292]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting $80-$90 on the turn and calling a push / getting the rest in on the river is probably better. Greater chance of stacking worse hands.

Also, you should cut off the action from after you go all-in on the turn to get unbiased responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive lurked these forums for a while, and found it immensely and neverendingly irritating to read a hand, read some discussion, and find the op had yet to post the results

[/ QUOTE ]

Do the results really matter? What if villain flopped a set or called with A high, who cares. It's the thought process that really counts. When we discuss hands we give players realistic hand ranges and act accordingly.

[mockturtle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting $80-$90 on the turn and calling a push / getting the rest in on the river is probably better. Greater chance of stacking worse hands.

Also, you should cut off the action from after you go all-in on the turn to get unbiased responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive lurked these forums for a while, and found it immensely and neverendingly irritating to read a hand, read some discussion, and find the op had yet to post the results

[/ QUOTE ]

Do the results really matter? What if villain flopped a set or called with A high, who cares. It's the thought process that really counts. When we discuss hands we give players realistic hand ranges and act accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's very zen and i respect that opinion, but i don't really feel my ability to analyze a hand is affected by seeing the results ahead of time. i really just want to know the ending [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]