3bet fun continued - facing flop check-raise on paired broadway flop

[matrix]

Villain in this hand is same guy as this hand but is playing 30/20/3 this session.

Hero is multitabling TAG and has been pretty nitty, not to mention carddead - have only 3bet once this session (they folded)

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $49.54
MP: $51.80
CO: $93.54
Hero (BTN): $75.67
SB: $36.07
BB: $19.96

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.50</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $24</font>, Hero ???

This guy bluff pushed my flop raise last big hand we played (see other post) - this time he c/r and dumps most of his stack in teh middle.

Is this ever a call?

I hate this flop, his betting pattern this hand is way stronger (?) best to get out with chipstack intact? (ish) or does his previous history make this a call? (if he knows last time I caught him bluffing - has he switched his bet sizing now - or is that just waaaaay over thinking things?)

I know he calls 3bets with a wide range and is capable of bluffing here. I think if he pushed the flop OTT of my CB I'd lean towards calling - if the flop comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I call here probably.

I don't want to check the flop as then I am facing the same problem on the turn (he'll lead, and if I call we are playing for stacks) and there are a bunch of turn cards I'd hate to see and just the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that I'd like.

[Lego05]

I very well may have checked behind on the flop....probably would have actually.



I just don't think you're getting bluffed that often here even though it sure does look like there's a good chance you are especially if you realy know he calls 3bets light even from UTG.. I dunno. I'd call with KK. With JJ here I probably somtimes call and sometimes fold...depends how I'm feeling I guess.



Edit: When I said call I meant shove. If he's at all good I don't think he's gonna try bluffing the turn again if he does indeed not have much. And a flush draw is definitely in his range.

[Check_The_Nuts]

guy calls with crap preflop and makes moves postflop.

and you guys are thinking of checking back or not bet/calling JJ here....

I can't even believe this.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
guy calls with crap preflop and makes moves postflop.

and you guys are thinking of checking back or not bet/calling JJ here....

I can't even believe this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'd check back on flop exactly because he makes moves. I'd check it back and expect him to bet the turn hard a very good amount of the time and then maybe call a shove on the turn with like 88 or the like.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guy calls with crap preflop and makes moves postflop.

and you guys are thinking of checking back or not bet/calling JJ here....

I can't even believe this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'd check back on flop exactly because he makes moves. I'd check it back and expect him to bet the turn hard a very good amount of the time and then maybe call a shove on the turn with like 88 or the like.

[/ QUOTE ]

last time it went hero bets villian shoves.

now you want to do villian bets hero shoves villian calls all in with 6 high?

boggles my mind....

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guy calls with crap preflop and makes moves postflop.

and you guys are thinking of checking back or not bet/calling JJ here....

I can't even believe this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'd check back on flop exactly because he makes moves. I'd check it back and expect him to bet the turn hard a very good amount of the time and then maybe call a shove on the turn with like 88 or the like.

[/ QUOTE ]

last time it went hero bets villian shoves.

now you want to do villian bets hero shoves villian calls all in with 6 high?

boggles my mind....

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because he raised hero's bet in one other hand doesn't mean he does that a lot in 3bet pots and it doesn't mean he does it on bluffs. I think there's a decent chance he'll bet most of his range when he sees weakness though.

And hero could call the turn and then call a river bet. I was just thnking raise turn here because draws are in villian's range and it is possible he calls with some mid-pair like 88.

[Check_The_Nuts]

dude makes big all in bluffs in reraised pots. On dry safe boards.

I dunno how u don't check JJ here seriously. Ur joking with me I know it.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
dude makes big all in bluffs in reraised pots. On dry safe boards.

I dunno how u don't check JJ here seriously. Ur joking with me I know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused now....because I am saying that I would have checked JJ on the flop. I thought you were saying not to check.

[Check_The_Nuts]

yeah edit and rediting does that to posts.

basically if your not bet/calling JJ and u do ever bluff when he checks to you, your going to be pretty exploitable to check/raise a lot of cbets.

with him having a history of push bluffing in reraised pots I think that just makes it even more of a bet call. Maybe if flop was 224 or something I'd prefer a check but not here. Especially when ur going to call turn+river anyways. Dunno how often he'll bluff river in that spot but u'll have a hard time figuring it out.

[DaycareInferno]

this is gonna be a bluff more often than a hand better than JJ. i don't really see why expecting him to bluff would equal not betting the flop. i mean, if you think he's going to bluff, just bet the flop and call his bluff.