Suite Face cards (QJ) OTB, cold call?

[threeducks]

Oh count the ways that I screwed this hand.

Mistake 1) cold call OTB? Probably raise or fold?

Mistake 2) Flop I should raise to test his hand?

Mistake 3) Turn, if I think that I am ahead, I should raise?

Mistake 4) check the river as played, will I win 55%,maybe a check here is okay? Minor mistake?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP3 has Ac Js (high card, ace).
Hero has Qd Jd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 5.75 BB. </font>

[Grease]

Either 3-bet or fold PF. He's in the HJ, so I would probably 3-town more aggressive PF raisers and fold to the more passive ones. It depends how wide his range can be.

Raise the flop and reevaluate from there.

If he calls and then C/R's the turn, I could find a fold against most players.

Bet the river as played. He'll pay off.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Either 3-bet or fold PF. He's in the HJ, so I would probably 3-town more aggressive PF raisers and fold to the more passive ones. It depends how wide his range can be.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont believe this is always true.

i had a similar situation against Grease a few nights ago. he opened in CO and I had KJs. A lot of times this is a 3 bet, but here I decided to do a rare cold call. my reasoning:

1) Grease knows I would 3 bet him light here. i have no showdown value UI and if HU hes calling all the way with ace high on most boards.

2) the blinds were very loose and bad. Thus I wanted to keep them in the hand.

So, i disagree with the 3bet or fold mantra in some spots. However, those spots are few and far between, and require a very specific situation and specific opponents.

[Mitke]

* grunch *

Preflop: If the blinds are loose, the HJ open-raiser's range is wide-ish I think cold-call is ok to try to build a multiway pot with position. If HJ is tight I muck this. If HJ opens with a wide range and blinds aren't loose enough to try to build a multiway pot that QJs likes, I'd 3bet to create fold equity for later on in the hand and playe carefully if I hit my hand because of danger of domination.

Flop. This a good spot to adopt wa/wb line. If he has a better Q you have 3 outs. If he doesn't have a Q he's going to muck it often to a raise. He probably has max one overcard to your pair. Pot is small. Board isn't too drawy. Those two rags probably didn't ht his hand. Let him bluff / bet a worse hand / keep your losses at minimum when you're beat. Calling down is the plan.

Turn. The villain might have gained a few outs if he's behind but not enough IMO to raise for the same reasons as on the flop.

River. Bet. He might have a smaller pair he's willing to call with or a weaker Q he doesn't want to risk a raise with.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
I had KJs. i have no showdown value UI

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?

[James.]

plz stop including results.

i would prob. fold pf without a read.

bet the river.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop and reevaluate from there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this because we are worried about a SD or think that our kicker is so good we lose value by not raising as worse Queens would call or that pockets in the 66-JJ range would call? Or something else?

Just wondering as I thought this looked like a wa/wb situation on the flop.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had KJs. i have no showdown value UI

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?

[/ QUOTE ]


switch my KJ to JTs if you want. the point is the same.

imo Grease's opening range from CO is heavily weighted towards any ace and any PP and is skewed away from suited connectors. because more of his range beats KJ UI I doubt I had any showdown value vs it. against other players of course, the situation is different.

against extremely aggressive stealers KJ has more showdown value, obviously.

[Grease]

First off, I don't think this is WA/WB. He could have 6 outs against us, and WA/WB doesn't automatically apply whenever we have top pair on the flop against a PFR.

WA/WB is something like having A5s against KK on a A97r board.

Granted, this could be WA/WB, but since the flop is only Q high, I'm less likely to assume WA/WB and just call down. I think our hand is good here more often than not and I want to extract value.

[Grease]

Also, when Kit calls there I get very worried, because he CC's PF very rarely and I'm giving him credit for a monster (or something like JTs).