nl200 weird 3bet pot spot

ManChild · #1 10-19-2007, 10:29 PM

I don't really have any read on villian which is part of why this is diffucult, at the time of the hand he was on 2 of my tables, could have been on more, i didn't check.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($61.40)
Hero ($209.80)
UTG ($144.10)
MP ($108.20)
CO ($315.20)
Button ($420.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $2, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $36, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $28.

Flop: ($83) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ? what is a good line here??

cooker3 · #2 10-19-2007, 11:53 PM

Bet/folding
About 60 seems good.
Are we turning our hand into a bluff? Well the bet is more for protection and to make our life easier. If he had a draw you want to charge him, if he has something like Jacks or AQ then if you check your put yourself in real awkward spot and making a big mistake of folding the best hand.

ManChild · #3 10-20-2007, 02:54 AM

if we bet 60 and he shoves we have to put 114 into 317, you don't think hes drawing / full of [censored] often enough to call that?

Richie Rich · #4 10-20-2007, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q.
1 fold, MP calls $2, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $36, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $28.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure if I agree with your HUGE re-raise btf, especially since you don't have any read on the villain (LAG, calling station, TAG?). But given the strength that you're representing, I would fire $75 on the flop to make it look like a fast-played AA/KK.

ManChild · #5 10-20-2007, 03:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q.
1 fold, MP calls $2, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $36, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $28.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure if I agree with your HUGE re-raise btf, especially since you don't have any read on the villain (LAG, calling station, TAG?). But given the strength that you're representing, I would fire $75 on the flop to make it look like a fast-played AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

there was 27 in the pot, and i raised 28, just 1$ over a pot sized raise, what is huge about that? what do you raise to?

Fat Nicky · #6 10-20-2007, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fire $75 on the flop to make it look like a fast-played AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

c-betting this big in 3-bet pots is probably a leak. betting $50 accomplishes pretty much the same thing as $75.

Richie Rich · #7 10-20-2007, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q.
1 fold, MP calls $2, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $36,

[/ QUOTE ]
I somehow overlooked the button calling in between you and the CO/raiser. Even so, it still looks like there was $2+$8+$8+blinds = $21 before it came back to you. I suppose the raise was good if you were trying to isolate the CO/raiser to see the flop HU. However, the problem now is that you're OOP with an overcard on the board and you're up against (not one, but) two opponents with a decent sized pot to fight over.

That's the problem with QQ - it's a great hand to have before the flop, but actually plays much more like JJ than KK in terms of how vulnerable it is to overcards &/or 2+ opponents after the flop. For this reason, I tend to play QQ more aggressively when I have position - and less so when I'm out.

What range of hands do you put the opponents on? Some issues you need to consider are: (a) given the pf action, could your opponents likely put you on AA/AK? and (b) if you played this hand aggressively, do you think you could push one of them off a possible AK/KQ?

Richie Rich · #8 10-20-2007, 04:48 AM

I hear what you're saying - but there are several ways to skin a cat. In this scenario, I suggested playing the hand fast to represent AA/KK/AK. One problem with betting $50 on this potential draw-board vs. 2+ opponents (when you're OOP) is that you don't gain enough feedback. By that, I mean, I'm more likely to "know where I'm at" when an opponent calls my nearly pot-sized bet than I would be if one or both called my half-pot bet.

Choosing between a $50 or $75 bet on the flop isn't about right or wrong - it's just a matter of personal choice.

jc1418 · #9 10-20-2007, 05:04 AM

I usually bet 63 , if he calls I check and see what he does, if he shoves over the top of my 63 I try to make a read based on the timing of his shove, readless I dont see how you can do anything but bet the flop here.

pineapple888 · #10 10-20-2007, 05:17 AM

A few things here...

4-bet is too big. Something like 30 accomplishes the same thing (denying decent set odds mainly) and gives you more room.

Readless, what are you possibly beating? JJ only? He'd have to be a huge idiot to show up with anything else (remember he has no read on you so he can't say zomg light squeeze), and while that is possible, I'm not so sure I'm ready to assume that. So c/f, weak as it seems, looks like a very reasonable option.

As played, bet/call is enormous spew.