Fort McDowell Arizona Poker Room Report

[BrunoThePug]

Just a little semi-trip report for the FortMcDowell Casino Poker Room in Arizona.

I usually play at Casino Arizona when I want to play live poker, but I've got a friend who works in Fountain Hills (the town near Fort McDowell so we decided to hit the place up after work on a Friday night.

My first impression of the room when I got there was that it seemed unorganized. There were a bunch of floor people standing around when I went up to the desk and nobody said anything to me about putting my name on a list. They've got a big BBJ and the 3-6LHE list for the BBJ tables was 54 deep, needless to say we didn't sit at the big BBJ table.

There was a tournament that was just finishing up, down to the final table, so they still had a million tables jammed into the room. I honestly could not get to my seat at a table in the middle of the room without having to get three other people at two different tables and one dealer to move their chairs around so I could squeeze by.

The dealers were hit and miss, it seemed that for every good dealer who knew what was going on and kept the game moving there was a sloppy dealer.

There was one dealer, a guy about 45-50, who sat down and the right off the bat was complaining about not having a break and how much he had worked and blah blah blah. Everyone hates their job every now and then but you don't go complaining to customers about how your job and your boss suck. There was a problem at a table behind us where the floor was called and this dealer actually turned around and starting watching the drama unfold while he was in the middle of dealing a hand at my table! He finally turned around when somebody said "Well I guess we can start taking money from the pot since nobody is watching".

The players were typical small stakes B&M players, nothing to out of the ordinary.

All in all if you're going to play live poker in the Phoenix area save yourself the trouble and just play at Casino Arizona.

[Howard Beale]

I live in Fountain Hills and drop by Ft. McDowell every now and then. Your report is accurate. They have a particular culture at the Fort that seems unique to them somehow. I'd mention a few things, though. You can sign yourself up on the board using a players card and, since most players do, the person on the podium may not ask you right away what game you want to play. They credit you $1/hr on the card which you can use for meals or get cash. They resurfaced the tables and just bought really comfortable chairs. The two daily tourneys are really popular. The total max rake is $5 but $3 of it goes into the promotion fund as opposed to $1 ($2 in the summer) at Casino Arizona. That allows them to have more going on than just the BBJ and also keeps it pumped up pretty high.

And, yes, you're better off at Casino Arizona unless you are staying near the Fort, want to play in the tourneys, or just want to see 4 different walls while playing low limit.

[Percula]

I thought I would add another to this, mostly in the hope that the management takes note...

My mother wanted to go out the crafts/arts fair there, so we headed out Saturday and got there about 3pm. She went to do her thing and I went to do mine.

To my shock there was a 2-150 spread limit game already running and with 5 people on the list! This is the only game I have any desire to play there.

Started by taking a seat in a 3/6 game and ran it over for about $40 in two orbits before getting called for a 4/8 game. I was at the 4/8 table for 5 orbits and another $60+ before getting called to the 2-150 table.

Now here is my beef. It is two fold.

1) Playing only 8 orbits between the two tables, took over 60 mins! OMG can you get any slower! There was a new(er) dealer that pushed to both of my tables, she was a mess! Well let me take that back, she it not "new" I seen her there 5 months ago. But she could not speak enough english to understand the players, pushed the pot to the wrong player twice and refused to call the floor when she made a mistake that required the floor, instead left it up to the players to figure it out for her. If I had been in the hand, I would have called the floor myself, but since it wasn't my money, I left it up to the player's it was to make the call or not.

2) Now my second beef. When I first got there I asked for service. I finally got Michelle over to the 4/8 table and got served at the 2-150 table about an hour and 15 minutes after I first asked for service. Now don't get me wrong, Michelle and her staff are EXCELLENT. But when you have three people serving the poker room (full and busy) and the two nearby slots rooms, you have to be smoking something if you think they can keep up.

If I go to Casino Arizona, 99/100 times I can get service within 15 mins of sitting and have my order a few mintues after that.

They have added new seats, very nice, best in the area. Thank you!

Now pony up some more bucks and get shuffle masters. If you can afford these fancy computerised board systems with LCD screens in the tables, you can cough up the money for shuffle masters. Just think of the jump you will see in the rake per hour!

The 2-150 game... It is played with 1/2 blinds and a $300 max buy-in, yes you read that right a 2xBB max buy-in. Humm I wonder how the 4/8 game would play if you could only buy-in for $16... Hint, hint you dipshits.

Anyway the game is slow and super tight. Lots of SMALL pots. But it has the potencial to explode at any time. Here is a good example...

PF: TIGHT player opens for a massively large PFR of $15 from UTG+1, everyone folds to me in the BB with 45o. I ask the player if he always raised my blind because I was a donkey and told him I would call if he gave me an honest answer. He said yes, because I was likely to call with any two cards. So I called.

Flop: ($30) 355r, I lead for $60 and say "Just because I am a donkey" and he quickly mini-raises to $120, I RR to $210 and remind him I am a donkey, he calls. I push another $150 dark which if he calls will put him AI.

Turn: ($420+$150 uncalled) A, Villian thinks for a minute and says "I guess I have to call, even if the that ace hit you" and calls his last $140.

River: ($710) 4, Villian tables his QQ and can not beleive I called him with 45o.

He was the forth victim of over playing their hand that I busted. Nice +~$1200 session.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]

Now pony up some more bucks and get shuffle masters. If you can afford these fancy computerised board systems with LCD screens in the tables, you can cough up the money for shuffle masters. Just think of the jump you will see in the rake per hour!



[/ QUOTE ]

I asked a senior manager a couple of years ago about the shuffle masters. He told me that besides the expense they don't necessarily want to rake faster. I got the impression that he was concerned that his much smaller player pool couldn't support it.

Additionally, they'd probably have to get them for the entire room. This doesn't do them any good for the tourneys, which are the only thing that fills up the room. They can't have the shufflers on some tourney tables and not on others. I'd guess that they can't justify the expense.

CA fills up often enough to justify the expense, I suppose, but FM would have tables w/ the shufflers sitting idle very often.

Also: I don't play spread limit at either FM or CA but would like a further explanation of your point about the buy-in anyway, if you don't mind taking the time. The buy-in at CA is only $50 more, IIRC. Noted that the BB is $5 at CA but does that affect the difference in play that much? What should the buy-in at FM be?

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
Also: I don't play spread limit at either FM or CA but would like a further explanation of your point about the buy-in anyway, if you don't mind taking the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't mind at all.

Having a maximum buy-in on any limit game, rather it is a spread limit or standard fixed limit or LHE with a 1/2 kill or full kill should not be capped.

Having the game capped at 2xBB or slightly greater than 2xBB is just plain silly. I understand why they did it, which is to avoid the whole "The players will go broke too fast" thing. That idea has some merit, but frankly if you can not afford to risk 2xBB you should not be in the game. I would like to see a no cap, or at least a more reasonable cap based on the play, which IMO would be somewhere between $1000 and $2000.

[ QUOTE ]
The buy-in at CA is only $50 more, IIRC. Noted that the BB is $5 at CA but does that affect the difference in play that much? What should the buy-in at FM be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the 3/5 versus the 1/2 structure makes a HUGE difference in the game.

At the Fort, the 1/2 structure tends to greatly reduce the action and the size of the average pot.

Also keep in mind that the Forts "claim to fame" is their MTT's which pretty much require that you play 4 hours before playing the tournament to be competitive. So you get people playing the 1/2 blind structure because they can make their cash play last longer. It is also billed as "NL Fort McDowell style", which is somewhat true, as the play does tend be much more along the lines of a NL game than a limit game. So this attracts the NL MTT players.

In the Fort game, I would guess that the average pot size is <$25. The average PFR is somewhere between $5 and $15. Unless you can control the action, a hand taken to showdown is likely to go something like this... Raise 15, one caller, 1/2 pot to full pot sized Cbet on the flop, call, check/check, then small value bet/call.

But if you can control the action with a fair amount of meta game, you see hands like I posted above.

It is rare to see someone at the table with >$600 at the Fort while a $600+ stack at CA is typical often with one or two players on a table with >$1000 sometimes >$2000.

At CA with the 3/5 structure, the average pot size is more along the lines of $125 and the PFR range is $15 to $75 with somewhere between $25 and $30 typical. It is not unusual to have 3+ people to the flop with a $30 PFR from a EP player. You see max bets of $150 all night long, which is something you rarely see at the Fort. You will rarely see a limped pot at CA while it is common at the Fort.

It is easier to get hot and fast action at CA, than it is at the Fort. The Fort's game gets explosive, but it takes a lot to make that happen, while at CA it doesn't take much at all.

[Howard Beale]

Thanks. As soon as I figure out who you are I'll come over and say hello.

[Aces_up_North]

I was going to post and add to what perc said, but...well...I can't he said it all. A prime example of the play at CA is this...I get to the card room at 2 am and sit down, quickly drop 350 in about two orbits with small sets droping to bigger rivered sets. Buy back in and play till 6am...I cash out at +2700 for the night...thats in just 4 hours...the play is fast and loose and the players over value there overpairs. Which like Perc is what I'm looking for in a game, not a rock fest...I would rather drag $600 pots then $25 pots. What about you? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Howard it was good to see you the other day

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather drag $600 pots then $25 pots. What about you? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I want them all... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

To be perfectly honest, a lot of the time, I find it easier to play against the regulars and rocks. They are very readable and predictable.

[h20man65]

I hate the fort

[pistolero]

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, they'd probably have to get them for the entire room. This doesn't do them any good for the tourneys, which are the only thing that fills up the room. They can't have the shufflers on some tourney tables and not on others. I'd guess that they can't justify the expense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't be a problem. Casino del Sol down south has shufflers on about 75% of their tables. During tourney time, every table goes to hand shuffling whether the table has an automatic shuffler or not. For cash games, they just start games on the shuffler tables first. Works out pretty well.