Intended Stop and Go flops set

Willd · #1 10-13-2007, 09:34 AM

Final 2 tables of a 12/180 turbo on stars. Villain had been fairly loose/aggro preflop but fairly tight postflop. When I called preflop I was intending to shove any flop without a 5. When I hit my 5 obviously I want to extract more value, but the line I ended up taking felt awful (and probably was). The checks on flop/turn were attempting to induce/let him catch up, then on the river I didn't think he was likely to call wide with the 1 card straight on board so I decided to try to induce again. I guess it was pretty bad checking a set 3 times but what should I have done different?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP (t48064)
CO (t17114)
Button (t14307)
SB (t24833)
Hero (t17704)
UTG (t16842)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t4800, 4 folds, Hero calls t3200.

Flop: (t8750) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (t8750) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (t8750) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks

betgo · #2 10-13-2007, 09:46 AM

Bet the turn. Definately bet the river.

JesseB_11 · #3 10-13-2007, 09:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn. Definately bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

ssnyc · #4 10-13-2007, 10:26 AM

fold or shove pre...he'll feel priced in either way...as played flop check is okay to disguise but throw out a small turn lead or you have no chance to get it all in by the river...check on the river???????????????????????????????

tomek322 · #5 10-13-2007, 10:54 AM

I would lead out on the flop, small hope he shoves over.

If i checked the flop, bet the turn.

If checked twice, bet the river.

Dunkman · #6 10-13-2007, 11:53 AM

I think the flop check is fine and actually preferable, you just have to do everything you can to coax a bet out of this guy in this spot. I agree that I'd lead the turn too, because at some point you just have to bet and hope he has something or wants to make a move.

As a total aside, can someone tell me what the benefit of doing a SNG with small pairs is? I mean, when you shove the flop, does a better hand ever fold? The only thing I've come up with is that you're willing to sacrifice come cEV against 2 overs by getting them to fold on the flop instead of drawing to 6 outs twice. I don't agree with this, but it's the best logic behind the play that I've been able to come up with. Well, I guess you also fold out bigger pairs when the board is really scary, but then again most of the time when it's AQJ and you shove you're just offing yourself. It always seems to me that with hands like this just shoving PF is preferable.

Pokerfarian · #7 10-13-2007, 12:24 PM

[ ] I like the SNG with 55
[x] I agree with Dunkman completely on that

[x] Flop check maybe exploitable & maybe bad game theory wise
[x] I like the flop check

[x] Leading turn is a better way of getting value
[x] As played lead river

Willd · #8 10-13-2007, 12:42 PM

I was never quite sure why stop and going with small pairs is so good but I've seen it said a number of times that it's actually better to do it with small pairs than with high cards. I think a lot of the reason is that if the preflop raiser is raising wide and is committed to calling your shove you end up in a lot of coinflips against weak overcard hands which you would be a decent way ahead of if you had big cards yourself. A number of these weak overcard hands will also flop 2nd or 3rd pair and getting these to fold increases your equity hugely.

As to the hand the pot was actually 11.3k, not the 8.7k shown by the converter and I had ~12.5k behind which meant he was never bluff shoving over a bet so betting flop seems awful. As for the turn I didn't think the 7 improved his range much so I couldn't see him calling with much after not betting the flop. Once it got to the river though I agree thatI should have thrown some sort of bet out. For some reason I got it into my head that he would call really tight because of the 4 straight on the board so trying to induce again would be better. I was definitely leading any card that didn't put a 4 straight on board.

tomek322 · #9 10-13-2007, 02:41 PM

the advantage to stop and going, as I understand it, with small pair is:

A. if you have 88vTT and the flop comes AQx... he may fold in a spot that there is no hope for a fold PF.

B. if you are up against two high cards and they miss the flop, you may get a fold and they lose the equity of seeing two additional cards.

Unfortunately since the stop and go has been discussed so widely (Raymer on ESPN, discussing the Williams vs Ariah hand),you pretty much get called by ace high when you do it. Also people are more aware of it and tens mayactually call with two overs on the board.

Coz · #10 10-13-2007, 04:09 PM

In these low limit donkfests, I usually shove whether I hit the set or not. The reason being is because everybody knows this move and they expect it! I have raised with a pocket pair flopped a set and shoved and have been called by AK or AQ that didn't hit. It does add some deception to your hand played that way. As played I would follow bego's line of betting turn and river.