NL$100| Hero = Fold Machine (line check)(4 hands)

Acevader · #1 10-10-2007, 12:45 PM

I seem to have spent the afternoon folding every half-decent hand I get so I'd appreciate you guys casting your eyes over them to see if I was being too weak, etc.

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HAND #1
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Villain is 32/15/5 - no specific reads. I put him on Jx so made a low value bet to try and induce a call. I really didn't expect to be raised TBH so it threw me. I just didn't think he was bluffing here enough?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $117.65
BTN: $154.25
SB: $98.90
BB: $110.65
Hero (UTG): $100

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $3.50, CO calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $6, CO calls $6

Turn: ($20.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $14, CO calls $14

River: ($48.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $16, CO raises to $94.15 and is All-In, Hero folds

Results: $80.50 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO mucked and WON $77.50 (+$38 NET)

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HAND #2
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Villain is 37/7/2 and this is about as Buluga as it gets!

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

MP: $94.50
CO: $169.50
BTN: $65
SB: $161.15
BB: $126.55
Hero (UTG): $217.10

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $3.50, 4 folds, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $7, BB calls $7

Turn: ($21.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, BB raises to $55, Hero folds

Results: $57.50 Pot ($2.85 Rake)
BB mucked and WON $54.65 (+$26.15 NET)

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HAND #3
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Villain is 41/11/5 and we are playing 200bb stacks here. I've no read on what his flop donks mean.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $19
BB: $238.70
UTG: $104.65
MP: $99.50
CO: $139.25
Hero (BTN): $221.10

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $5, SB folds, BB calls $4, CO folds

Flop: ($11.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $6, Hero raises to $20, BB raises to $40, Hero folds

Results: $51.50 Pot ($2.55 Rake)
BB mucked and WON $48.95 (+$23.95 NET)

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HAND #4
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Villain is 53/13/lots but I have no specific useful reads on him. In this hand I bet the flop for value but check the flop to induce bluffs on the river or to induce him to bet weaker queens (which I expect him to do). However, the considerable river overbet scuppered my plan. Was I weak to go back on the plan or should I consider that this overbet is probably a better hand trying to make up for lost value?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (MP): $100
CO: $117.55
BTN: $384.70
SB: $116.80
BB: $145.20
UTG: $100

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $8, UTG calls $8

Turn: ($26.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($26.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets $35

Results: $26.50 Pot ($1.30 Rake)
UTG mucked and WON $25.20 (+$12.70 NET)

AE6 · #2 10-10-2007, 01:01 PM

1) bet more like 1/2 pot on the river
2) standard
3) ugh so sick. i guess your play is fine though.
4) bet the turn. as played fold is fine

Acevader · #3 10-10-2007, 01:06 PM

"bet more like 1/2 pot on the river" - would villain really look that up with Jx here? I figured I had to bet an amount he really couldn't turn down to keep me honest.

"4) bet the turn. as played fold is fine" - I usually would but I'm sure this guy bets 2/3rd-full pot on any river with ATC but with his aggressive post-flop play I fear potentially being raised off turn by draw, bluff or weaker hand. Of course, it seems silly to induce a bluff and then fold when villain actually makes the bet but it's the bet amount that total changed it for me!

Thanks for your input - appreciated.

AE6 · #4 10-10-2007, 01:09 PM

with regards to hand 1, i'm worried about your bet size showing weakness, inciting him to bluff shove. that's why i feel something like $26 would be better.

Suwalski · #5 10-10-2007, 01:21 PM

Hand 1 bet 30 on river. Fold to a push.

Hand 2 is really tuff since his stats indicate that he's a donk. But i guess you don't lose much on a fold.

Hand 3 I might be resultoriented, but i think a call on flop is good since we're so deep.

Hand 4. I think a check a turn would induce a bluff i also think he would bet weaker Qs, i call his riverbet. Prefer b/f on turn though.

franklloydwright · #6 10-10-2007, 01:34 PM

I haven't looked too deeply into the other hands, but hand 3 seems like a big problem.

Obviously there are a number of hands that we're scared of, but if the BB flopped big, why would he lead into the raiser? If he flopped 2 pair, or a set, why wouldn't he c/r or c/c and lead on the turn? I think at best he shows up with a combo draw like 9Tss or QTss, and is willing to get it in on the flop. In a situation like this, I think you should have called, and if he checks a non spade, 9, or A turn, you should feel pretty good about your hand.

Acevader · #7 10-10-2007, 03:20 PM

If I bet $30 in hand one I have $46 back and would be looking at 3.3:1 on calling a push. I'd have to be absolutely certain I'm beat there to fold, no?

Hand 3 I had a similar fear that the lead-min-3-bet might be a combo draw. Worryingly about 10 minutes later villain called a raise with A5o and on a flop of A,5,Q c/c the flop and c/r the turn (got AI vs QQ incidentally and broke the guy on an ace river!). After witnessing that more 'standard' fish line for play of a 2p or better hand my heart sank.

That said, I've seen this weak lead-3bet line used a few times with very strong hands. Firstly because strong players quite often raise the weak lead even if they don't have the hand and secondly because if their opponent does have a hand they often at least call the re-raise by which time the pot is pretty big.

I did consider the call but as I saw it the real problem is that I'd be in a reverse implied odds situation in a deep stacked hand. My hand can only really improve if I hit an ace but that, if we consider villain to be playing a combo draw often, would improve me to a second best hand (albeit with a redraw). Other than that my hand can't really get better. Ordinarily a 7 would help things as it reduces the likelyhood of 77 to just one combination and counterfeits KJ but this villain can as easily have j7 or kj as he could kj. Therefore, I feel that if I call he will continue to hammer value out of me when he's already ahead or overtakes but hardly ever give away a great deal more when he's behind. I stand to lose the most when I'm beat but extract the least value when I'm ahead.

Then there is the pot size - if I call it stands at $90 meaning that if I'm willing to look him up on a blank turn I could be calling as much as 70-90bb on one street! I may even find myself committed or at the very least facing 50+bb more on the river. Even with his strange line and cowboy stats this just seemed like a horrible situation. Perhaps different with 100bb effective stacks at the start.

franklloydwright · #8 10-10-2007, 03:35 PM

Considering all of this, (obv it would have been nice to have had witnessed the A5o hand before), the point is that you didn't need to improve, you merely need to avoid him improving. Dig?

In regards of what you're saying good players weak leading with powerful hands, with the desire to be reraised, how often do you see that at these stakes? Really?

Obviously, it's hard to have this kind of perspective in the heat of the moment, but i think looking back now, you can see that there's almost no way you're beat on the flop. I personally don't advocate a shove, I call and peel, and move in on any non spade, non A non 9 (maybe non 8) turn. But that's just me.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet $30 in hand one I have $46 back and would be looking at 3.3:1 on calling a push. I'd have to be absolutely certain I'm beat there to fold, no?

Hand 3 I had a similar fear that the lead-min-3-bet might be a combo draw. Worryingly about 10 minutes later villain called a raise with A5o and on a flop of A,5,Q c/c the flop and c/r the turn (got AI vs QQ incidentally and broke the guy on an ace river!). After witnessing that more 'standard' fish line for play of a 2p or better hand my heart sank.

That said, I've seen this weak lead-3bet line used a few times with very strong hands. Firstly because strong players quite often raise the weak lead even if they don't have the hand and secondly because if their opponent does have a hand they often at least call the re-raise by which time the pot is pretty big.

I did consider the call but as I saw it the real problem is that I'd be in a reverse implied odds situation in a deep stacked hand. My hand can only really improve if I hit an ace but that, if we consider villain to be playing a combo draw often, would improve me to a second best hand (albeit with a redraw). Other than that my hand can't really get better. Ordinarily a 7 would help things as it reduces the likelyhood of 77 to just one combination and counterfeits KJ but this villain can as easily have j7 or kj as he could kj. Therefore, I feel that if I call he will continue to hammer value out of me when he's already ahead or overtakes but hardly ever give away a great deal more when he's behind. I stand to lose the most when I'm beat but extract the least value when I'm ahead.

Then there is the pot size - if I call it stands at $90 meaning that if I'm willing to look him up on a blank turn I could be calling as much as 70-90bb on one street! I may even find myself committed or at the very least facing 50+bb more on the river. Even with his strange line and cowboy stats this just seemed like a horrible situation. Perhaps different with 100bb effective stacks at the start.

[/ QUOTE ]

Acevader · #9 10-10-2007, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In regards of what you're saying good players weak leading with powerful hands, with the desire to be reraised, how often do you see that at these stakes? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood, I don't think good players do this. Good player c/r or if they lead they bet a proper amount. I've seen lots of fish do the weak-lead then 3-bet line with strong hands. It's there sort of 'gotcha' play and must make them feel all fuzzy inside [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

RAHZero · #10 10-10-2007, 05:08 PM

I hate your river bet in hand 1. I would much prefer a check-call to a bet-fold (given your bet size). Villain has an AF of 5, and in position with PF stats of 32/15 he could easily have diamonds that he floated the flop with, 64, or a weak J that he decided to turn into a bluff on the river. If your going to value bet the river, I'd make it $30ish.

Hand 2 is WTFish. I tend to say [censored] Baluga and stack off in spots like this against idiots, but without a specific read I'd fold and keep an eye on villain.

I'd definitely call the small flop 3-bet and re-eval the turn in hand 3. You're getting good odds, could very well have the best hand, and have the BDNFD.

I like the way you played hand 4 if you called the river. These guys fire on the river with 100% of their range when you check the turn here, and their range is pretty well beat by TP2K on this board.